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Tactics Question: Team needing the least number of dice rolled to succeed

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by hungrygnome, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Now I know this is a very subjective question, especially as your opponents complicate things. But in a game not long ago, I won 5-0 against Ogres with High Elves. I threw all of 3 blocks the entire game. Now I did get lucky on those blocks, all :pow: when I needed it, but it got me thinking.

    Which team either A) needs the fewest dice rolled to start(or has the built in re-rolls to help), or B) which team develops into such the fastest? Im a conservative player by nature, I try for what is the safest, which is likely why Im enjoying elves, as they seem to be the most reliable because of AGI 4.(Which is also why blodge seems to be a common theme of my High Elves in tabletop) I do throw the risky plays when needed, but those are desperation plays, both on offense and defense.
     
  2. Voltorocks

    Voltorocks Member

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    A game with ogres isn't a great example; they're very low tier and generally easy to beat.

    I find generally, AG teams roll a lot of easy dice, while slower bashier teams tend to roll a few low risk dice and a couple higher risk rolls a game.
     
  3. Doomy

    Doomy Member

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    Wood Elves are pretty much the only team where a 0 reroll build is actually viable, due to AG4 and players starting with skill rerolls. So probably them.
     
  4. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    It's a general truth that all varieties of Elf team will need to make a lot of dodge rolls, because they don't have the strength or access to Guard that would make it easier to deal with markers by blocking them away at two dice in favour (2d6), and they don't want to stay in contact in case they get blocked and then hurt. They are further encouraged to reach for the d6 (and to pass and catch the ball) by their widespread AG4.

    Conversely, teams of AG3 or worse have a much stronger incentive to try and bash their way into promising positions, or keep their opponents tied up by staying in base contact. Generally speaking - once allowances are made for individual coaches' play-style and skill level - these sides will roll the d6 less, while making more 2d6 block attempts than the Elf teams.

    In the absolute best-case scenario, a dodge, pass, hand-off or catch will cause a turnover 1 in 36 times for an AG4 player (with a skill or team re-roll to hand). A 2d block will cause a turnover 1 in 1296 times for a player with Block (with a team-roll to hand).

    The relative importance of a given block and a given dodge aren't equivalent, but a coach that wants to avoid as much risk as possible will be better served in that purpose by choosing a team whose play-style requires fewer of the riskier kind of rolls: d6 agility checks. That would be a team with access to high strength players and/or the core blocking skills (of which the foremost are Block and Guard). Orcs are an obvious choice, but Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Undead, Chaos, Nurgle, Norse, Amazon and even Khemri and all come under this umbrella, and are among the teams you will see making the least amount of the most risky (d6) rolls in their core style of play.

    For further reading, I'd recommend checking out Scadeau's risk management strategy guide and his Funhouse Cast team blog.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  5. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Pro Elves need only 1 Pass, 1 Catch and 1 Dodge to score. All inbuilt RRs. Well dodge after 6 SPP. Catchers have Nerves of Steel... so they can dodge out of multiple TZs

    Now the linemen will get battered... so once the important moves are made its convenient to either block and push away oppo players or dodge out.

    Check the link above that John posted... reducing risk isn't only about not rolling... but what you roll and why.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  6. AllyRdr

    AllyRdr Member

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    Nerves of Steel doesn't affect dodge rolls. Only pass, catch and pick up.
     
  7. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Actually looking at the rosters, once you add sure hands to wood elf and amazon throwers, those teams have all built in re-rolls possible. Dodge, catch, pass, surehands. With amazons having the most on the team, though less reliable than wood elf.

    With a starting roster of:

    2 Wardancers
    1 Thrower
    3 Catchers
    5 Linemen

    1 Re-roll

    And played conservatively, Wood elf is the team that would then use the least, and safest, number of rolls.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  8. Citizen Nev

    Citizen Nev Member

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    Fewest 1D6? Dwarves. I've played games where I've rolled under 10 1d6

    Fewest in total? Hard to say. You either Dodging away or Blocking so...
     
  9. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    I know... but once they have the ball... it rare that they might need to dodge through more than 1 TZ... unless they are almost completely surrounded... which means u just have to run around that bunched up oppo team.
     
  10. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    If a player is dodging through a tackle zone, then they have to make a 2nd dodge to escape then. Ultimately, I think Wood Elf is the team. With 2 turn TD being relatively easy, lots of built in re-rolls, and even leap to reduce multiple dodge rolls into a single leap instead, or cage break. Im always leery of 7 AV, but I tried a 0 re-roll woodelf build, and im suprised at how well it works.
     
  11. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Wood elf receivers have to be freed in order to receive... which involves dodging or blocking. Pro-Elves just receive with NoS.

    In the end Woodies run the ball more... and if they do proper screening it won't involve much blocking. Just dodge and leap at most.
     
  12. Basilisk9466

    Basilisk9466 Member

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    I'm a little puzzled at all the proponents of Woodsies as being low on dice rolls.

    Overall I tend to find that I roll more dice with my Wood Elf team (or at least that's my perception, I haven't compared stats). I don't really see the connection between 'safe' rolls and 'few' rolls. Yes, they have high stats and a crapload of built-in rerolls... but they need those, because they're squishy and thrive on taking a crowbar to opposing mistakes. You roll more dice because you can afford to, and because you'll probably need to. A team like Khemri, who are going to blow a lot of important rolls, wins by rolling as few dice as possible. They go and sit on people, make life difficult, and make a couple of important blocks every now and again.

    Compare to a typical Woodsie play that requires a leap, two dodges, a pass and a catch.
     
  13. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Khemri must block EVERY TURN in order to move their cage forward. Wood elfs, can just hand off the ball, so one catch roll, run forward making a dodge or leap, then pass the ball, making a pass and a catch. so 5 rolls to score including pickup. Maybe a single block or two.. so you are looking at 7 rolls to score, with dodge, pass, and catch skills to re-roll. How many blocks does khemri have to throw to grind a cage into scoring range? Defensively they make alot of dodge rolls if the opponent marks you heavily. But you can always toss a few linemen at the cage and retreat back with everyone else and wait for an opportunity to break it open.

    So elves make more 1d6 rolls, where bash teams are making more block rolls. If you figure it takes 4 -5 turns to score, and average 3 blocks a turn, thats 12-15 rolls, plus the pickup to score.

    Once elves are in scoring range, they can just leave everyone still based, because you dont need to dodge players out to free them from hits once you score.
     
  14. Basilisk9466

    Basilisk9466 Member

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    That's a fair point. I suppose in my brain, I rate blocking as far less risky than d6 rolling, and therefore assign less value to it. Yes, a Khemri team will have to do a lot of blocking (on offence, at least), but screwing it up will generally not be catastrophic. An elf has to make every single one of those seven rolls work, or it'll all crash down around their pointy ears.
     
  15. Voltorocks

    Voltorocks Member

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    A lot of people seem do be doing the same thing as you: dismissing the defense phase of the game. A dwarf, khmeri, or nurgle team going for a 2-1 grind may throw a lot of (2D, relatively safe) blocks, but almost the entire game is their two offensive drives. sure, wood (or any) elves roll very few dice to score; they also often spend 10-14 turns on defense, during they are which time perpetually making fistfuls of dodges, leaps, high risk blocks, etc.

    elf players (myself included) love to talk at length about their offensive gameplan, what builds will bring about the easiest 2t score, etc. But we often neglect to mention (or think about) the fact that after you score, you have to give the ball up and start making a half-dozen dodges a turn.
     
  16. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    Basilisk and Voltorocks are right on with their posts.

    Go back and have another look at the chances for turnover in my previous post. Now, think of it this way: even if it were ten times less likely for an 2+ dodge to fail with a re-roll in hand, it would still be nowhere near as unlikely as a 2d block with Block and a re-roll failing. If your primary exposure to risk in Blood Bowl is through blocks, throwing five times as many blocks as your opponent makes dodges does not redress the risk balance in favour of the dodging team.

    (Which is to say nothing of the fact that if they're actively dodging away from you, you're not even having to make those blocks.)

    You have to work hard to make up the mobility difference, sure. Positioning becomes a lot more important. Drives become longer. You will still do a few d6 rolls (picking the ball up), they will become more important, and they will be more likely to fail than if you were coaching an agility side. All of this is true. But you are inarguably exposed to less dice-based risk by playing a bash team, compared to an agility team played at the same level.
     
  17. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Im not discounting defense. Elves in particular need to be built towards defense, since their offence is quite potent from the get go. I just have no reliable way to gauge how many rolls you make on defense, though the major advantage is still that blocks can only be re-rolled with team rolls(or pro), where dodge skill is a built in re-roll. 2d block, while hopeful, are not always possible, or at least until they have some guard spread around or have a strength advantage.

    Maybe im just weird and a little different, as I play High Elves and Dark Elves as willing to mark heavily and stay in contact with most teams, but Ive gotten lucky and have 2-3 guard on them by mid TV.
     
  18. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    This season I have won matches in the OCC with my chaos team with less than 10 1d6 rolls for the entire match.

    First match I rolled 7 1d6 in total (2 of those were jump up blocks) and I rolled 116 block dice

    Second match I rolled 7 1d6 (1 being a KO roll) and I rolled 74 block dice

    It is hard to play with less risk than that:powdodge:
     
  19. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    So averaging around (3) 2d blocks a turn, and a 1d6 roll every other. which is arond 3.5 rolls a turn. But that is also a very developed Chaos team im guessing. Im talking out the gate at TV 1000. I understand its a subjective question, but was primarily intended for speculation.
     
  20. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    I think elves can block back... just dodge the right guys out and assist. Naturally if your bunched up you get in trouble as the guard advantage is usually on the other side.