1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Quick Snap and Shadowing.

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by tys123, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

    Messages:
    2,501
    Country Flag:
    I was wondering if a shadowing player could follow up into the opponents half on a quick snap result.

    Cyanide lets you do it. It surprised me and made my 1 turner a lot easier as the assassin was then exactly where I wanted him to go. However I wasn't sure if the actual rules let you do that.
     
  2. St Cloud

    St Cloud Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,228
    Location:
    Germany; GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    St. Cloud
    Country Flag:
    Yes i saw that and was wondering the same. Looking at the rules i don't think shadowing should be used on a quick snap.

    Quick snap: "(..) This is a free move and may be made into any adjacent empty square, ignoring tackle zones. (..)"

    Shadowing: "The player may use this skill when a player performing an action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason. (..)"
     
  3. Ben

    Ben New Member

    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    Southampton
    Country Flag:
    The quick snap allows the moving player to ignore tackle zone (e.g. he doesn't have to dodge), but he is still moving out of the assassin's tackle zone, so I don't see why the assassin shouldn't get to use Shadowing.
     
  4. St Cloud

    St Cloud Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,228
    Location:
    Germany; GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    St. Cloud
    Country Flag:
    Well it depends what you think ignores TZ means i guess.
     
  5. SovereignStrike

    SovereignStrike Member

    Messages:
    99
    Location:
    Qu├ębec City
    Cyanide Username:
    SovereignStrike
    Country Flag:
    *summons Dode*
     
  6. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

    Messages:
    203
    Location:
    Kristianstad
    Country Flag:
    Was looking a bit at this. And I actually think that you are not allowed to use Shadowing during a Quick Snap. Also, I think St Cloud actually highlighted the wrong part of Shadowing, I mean sure it is an importent part of the Shadowing rule, but just not an importent one to this particular question.

    Here is why I think what I write above:

    As St Cloud posted, this is the text from the start of the explenation for the Shadowing skill, but I have changed the highlighted part (compared to St Cloud's highlight) to what I think it the more importent aspect of this skill in this particular case:

    I even underlined the most importent part of the highlighted part... "Action". So, what is an "Action" in BB then? Well, according to the Competion Rules (page 7) an "Action" is either a "Move", "Block", "Blitz", "Pass", "Hand-off", or a "Foul". These are the only things in the game that are considered an "Action". And any other movement made, that is not part of an "Action", should then mean that it is "immune" to Shadowing being used on it.

    Now if we look at what is said on "Quick Snap" (not quoting the entire part, but this is the importent parts of it):

    As we can see, nowhere is it said that this is an "Action" (or in the other remaining parts of the text for Quick Snap either for that matter). So, this should mean that you are not allowed to use Shadowing during a Quick Snap, at all. The only kick-off event where "Action" is even mentioned, is during a Blitz, and as such during that partiular kick-off event you would be allowed to use Shadowing at the right situations. But not during a Quick Snap, or any of the other remaining kick-off events.

    When you look through the rules for BB, with the word "Action" in mind... you will find that this word, writen with a capital A, is all over the place. It is actually a very importent part of the rules... since any given player on any given team may only perform one single Action during their own turn.

    I just think Cyanide has made it possible to use Shadowing on Quick Snap mostly because I guess most people do asume "A move is a move, no matter why it happened" or something, and as such tend to miss and/or forget that it is only during an opponents "Action" that you can use Shadowing.


    As a sidenote about Actions and Shadowing... and I do not know if this is already implimented in to Cyanides version of BB, or if people have been using it this way at all when playing the Table Top or any other version of the BB (mostly since I personaly never use Shadowing, and since I almost never encountered the situation against opponents with Shadowing, so I never had to even consider it befor)... but this should mean that you are allowed to use Shadowing when an opponent takes a Follow-up move after pushing an opponent during a Block or Blitz Action. And of course when taking "Going for it" steps as well (since it ican be part of the move aspect of most of the Actions), but I asume most people would asume this was the case with going for it. It was just the "follow-up move" that I realized might also be part of it, since a follow-up move can be part of a Block and Blitz action. Thoughts?
     
  7. Silfir

    Silfir Member

    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Esslingen, GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    Silfir
    Country Flag:
    You can use Shadowing on follow-ups just fine, as far as my memory using the Cyanide client goes, because they're part of Block or Blitz Actions, and Shadowing is not restricted to Move Actions.

    What I don't know is whether, in the Cyanide client, you can use Shadowing against a player who's using Pass Block. Like Quick Snap, the rules for Pass Block allow the player to "move" without mentioning the word "Action". The FAQ of the LRB6 explicitly state that the Pass Block move is not a Move Action, but a "special out of turn move". That describes Quick Snap as well to me, so I'd have to agree Shadowing (which is explicitly restricted to Actions) should not apply.
     
  8. akirilus

    akirilus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,459
    Country Flag:
    Shadowing by all rights should work against Pass Block, because it triggers dodge rolls, so while it happens out of turn, you are still leaving and entering active tackle zones of opposing pieces. Pass Block movement follows all the regular movement rules, except that you are allowed to make it as an "interrupt" action in response to a pass (for anyone who has played Magic The Gathering). In fact, you can even interrupt an interrupt with it - Dump-Off triggers Pass Block, Dump-Off itself being an interrupt of the blitz against the ball carrier. They resolve just like the stack in MTG.

    Shadowing does not work on Quick Snap (or at least it shouldn't - never seen it come up in Cyanide) because despite the wording, Quick Snap is an event that affects kickoff setup. Much like Perfect Defense, it allows you to modify the initial alignment after having "committed" to it. In other words, the player who took a quick snap move was never there - he shifted quickly, and the defender misinterpreted his initial position :) .
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  9. Silfir

    Silfir Member

    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Esslingen, GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    Silfir
    Country Flag:
    Yeah, except Shadowing says this:

    The player may use this skill when a player performing an Action on the opposing team moves out of any of his tackle zones for any reason.

    Pass Block not being an Action (as mentioned in the FAQ of the rulebook), Shadowing doesn't work. Or shouldn't work. If it's supposed to work against Pass Block, the rulebook writers made a goof.

    I'd also like it better if it did work, because Shadowing is not one of the better skills and the more applicable it is, the more fun it is to play with, but in this particular case the rulebook is quite unambiguous.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2015
  10. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

    Messages:
    203
    Location:
    Kristianstad
    Country Flag:
    Yeah... according to the rules it should only work on Actions, because it is worded in such a way. But I do agree that it would not be all that bad if it worked on all kinds of movement for any reason.

    I guess you could look at it as the person with Shadowing is really good at predicting what the opponent is about to do. So that when that person goes in for a deliberatly choicen action, and move or blitz or what ever, the Shadower predicted it. Where as everything that is not an Action the Shadower is not able to predict, because it does not follow the opponents natural choice of actions, and rather happens unpredictably due to changing circumstances on the field that the shadower is unable to predict or foresee.
     
  11. crimsonsun

    crimsonsun Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,793
    Location:
    Kent, Uk
    Cyanide Username:
    crimsonsun
    Country Flag:
    The Answer to the OP question is no you cannot use Shadowing on a Quick Snap as you have no tackle zone.

    Shadowing can and is allowed to be used against Pass Block as it is an Action, this is inferred by the sentence that states this will not effect the players ability to perform a subsequent action as well as the fact that actively Moving a player is a Action, which is why out of sequence actions need clarifying (and are clarified) that they don't effect the models ability to act normally.

    Finally Shadowing can be used to follow models that Follow up after completing a Block or Blitz Action but not to follow those who are pushed as a result of a blitz/block action because that player has taken no Action.

    Hope that helps.
     
  12. Silfir

    Silfir Member

    Messages:
    78
    Location:
    Esslingen, GMT+1
    Cyanide Username:
    Silfir
    Country Flag:
    I'll give this another try:
    Living Rulebook 5, page 62:

    Living Rulebook 6 says the same thing.

    I don't think the argument based on the word "subsequent" in the Pass Block skill description (which never calls Pass Block itself an Action) outweighs the ones brought forth in the FAQ in the actual rulebook. The "NOT" in "Pass Block is NOT an Action" is capitalized. Barring copy/pasting that sentence from the FAQ section of the rulebook onto every other page, I'm not sure how the case could be made clearer.

    As this FAQ answer also points out, actions use MA, allow players to stand up, you can use GFIs etc, none of which apply to Pass Block.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
  13. CariadocThorne

    CariadocThorne Member

    Messages:
    65
    Location:
    Kent, England
    Country Flag:
    It's the same as jump up. Both jump up and shadowing require the use of an action, as pass block is explicitely stated to not be an action, you can't use jump up to pass block with a downed player, and you can't shadow a player using pass block to move.

    If pass block WAS an action, it would even allow a downed player to stand up and intercept a pass going over them. That would plainly be ridiculous, as a player could potentially get up on the same turn he was knocked down!
     
  14. crimsonsun

    crimsonsun Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,793
    Location:
    Kent, Uk
    Cyanide Username:
    crimsonsun
    Country Flag:
    Interesting regards to the Q&A which seems a strange definition and puts the following part of the Pass block skill into the realms of being confusion.
    "The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (so, for example having to dodge when leaving a tackle zone)."

    Well the normal rules for movement not only count it as an action but also that shadowing should apply and the rules also clearly state that when a skill over writes the basic rules use the rules for the skill instead. The fact that the skill states all the rules and skills apply makes me question the validity of that Q&A answer in this regard.

    As an aside for arguing regarding cyanide I'm using the Living rulebook6 competition rules because that's the one the game supplies, LRB5 has some very different rules interpretations within. I'd also be interested to know who compiled the Q&A because if it was done by a GW staff member opposed to the Living Rules committee I wouldn't hold much behind any of the answers provided because there history of making such rulings is in no way the same as the intent of the designer.

    Anyway regardless of the previous paragraph I feel the wording used in Pass Block in which it specifically states that all skills and rules apply is a VERY strong case to why shadowing can be used in this instance.
     
  15. crimsonsun

    crimsonsun Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,793
    Location:
    Kent, Uk
    Cyanide Username:
    crimsonsun
    Country Flag:
    Yes and no, while I agree I'm obviously wrong in thinking pass block is an action, Jump is only used when declaring a action while Pass Block/Shadowing in my opinion is far less clear cut because it states all rules and skills apply, with ALL being a pretty direct word lacking any ambiguity on the matter.
     
  16. CariadocThorne

    CariadocThorne Member

    Messages:
    65
    Location:
    Kent, England
    Country Flag:
    All skills and rules apply, that's fine.

    The tackle skill also applies to pass block movement, but has no effect unless the moving player has dodge. So we could say that shadowing DOES apply, but as no action is being used, it has no effect.

    Logically it is a process of:
    -Does the skill apply? Yes, because pass block states that all rules and skills apply.
    -What does the skill do? It allows the player to move into the square vacated by an adjacent player WHO IS USING AN ACTION TO MOVE, unless they roll higher than 7 on d6+moving players MA-shadowing players MA.
    -What effect does the skill have? None, as the player is not using an action to move.

    So again, it does apply, it just doesn't do anything.
     
  17. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

    Messages:
    12,230
    Steam Username:
    Dreamy
    Cyanide Username:
    Dreamy
    Country Flag:
    "Normal movement" also uses the players movement attribute, but pass block uses move 3 instead (even a treeman with pass block could move 3 on the pass block move)
     
  18. crimsonsun

    crimsonsun Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,793
    Location:
    Kent, Uk
    Cyanide Username:
    crimsonsun
    Country Flag:
    No because the skill clearly over rules that in its description. However I'm not saying I'm correct I just feel its not clear in its current form at all.

    Really not sure where your coming from regarding tackle in this regard with players using dodge because Tackle will work against pass block, no if's buts or maybes just because someone doesn't have dodge doesn't mean tackles not working it all tackles still in effect just its not needed.

    I'm challenging your logic regarding the out come because the skill clearly states treat the movement as normal for determining rules and skills that take effect. This doesn't alter the effect of jump up in relation or allow the player to take gfi's because as has been said its not an action BUT while a player is making there pass block moves to me the Rules as Written say that the movement involved is treated as a normal action for all of those 3 squares when determining which skills take effect.

    I cannot obviously know what the rules as intended are for this situation but I'm not seeing anything that defines the rules as written to be different or contradicting to my interpretation. As I clearly stated at the start of this post I may be wrong or I may have missed something but nothing anyone has pointed out to me thus far in this discussion counters the to me most logical understanding of interpreting the rules purely from the stance of how they are written and to get any other outcome your needing to alter the base fact that the rules state that movement is considered an action, which is reinforced by the text clearly stating that all skills that effect normal movement apply even though this is not an action in itself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
  19. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,792
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada (UTC -4)
    Steam Username:
    travelscrabble
    Cyanide Username:
    travelscrabble
    Country Flag:
    I think its fair to say it's ambiguous, I see both sides as having presented well reasoned arguments and am not wholly convinced by either. How does FUMBBL implement pass block and shadowing out of interest?
     
  20. Mephiston

    Mephiston Member

    Messages:
    203
    Location:
    Kristianstad
    Country Flag:
    The sheer fact that it is stated in the Frequently asked Question that Pass Block is not an Action (as was mentioned earlier in the thread), should remove all doubts about if you can use Shadowing or not on someone doing a Pass Block. But, since there is still some scepticism about it, and the validatie about the answers in the Frequently asked Questions section, I will dig deeper into what is said in the various sections of the rules and texts about skills and such to show you why Pass Block is not an Action. (Although... I have to say... the fact that it was GW who put these rules out there, even though they them selves did not create it, should be enough for all the FaQ stuff to be "valid".)


    So... If Pass Block was an Action it would have been part of the list (or the folloing note just below it) of Actions on page 7... and as we can clearly see, it is not. And as we can also see, not a single one of the things that are listed as "Actions" are actually skills.

    And then the part about "The special move is free, and in no way effects the player's ability to move in a subsequent action." in the text about Pass Block. This does not in any way mean that the Pass Block was/is an action.

    First off... the first part of "free" move in the text... In the text for Quick Snap, that movement of 1 that you get from rolling the Quick Snap result on a kick-off, is also describes as a "free" move.

    Then the part about that this move does not effect the players ability to move in a subsequent action. What it is saying is that by doing a Pass Block that characters own MA will not be somehow reduced later on (in this turn or the next, seeing as it it possible to do a Pass Block in both your own and your opponents turn), or stop the player from actually doing an Action after doing a Pass Block (again in this turn or the next). So esscentially it is saying that the character will still be able to perform an Action as normal (and once again in this turn or the next) after it has done a Pass Block.

    Thirdly... "Subsequent" does not mean in any way shape or form that the previous, and/or next, thing done was the same as the previous thing. Subsequent only means that something is "Following in time or order", and/or "Occurring after", and/or "Succeeding", and other such words. It does not, as I said, mean that the previous, or following thing is the same. So, the fact that it says "a subsequent action" is only refering to that Pass Block will not effect Actions that you take after you used Pass Block in this or the next turn, and not that it would somehow mean that Pass Block it's self was an Action.

    Finally the part about that all the rules and skills are used for the Pass Block move... Again it does not actually say, or have to mean, that Pass Block in some way is an Action due to it (and as such allowes a player to use Shadowing on the Pass Blocker).

    To me, looking at all these things, the most logical and obvious result is that Pass Block is not an Action, and as such you can not use Shadowing on it.

    - - -

    One thing I have gotten out of reading deeper in to all this about Pass Block, is that during your own turn, if you Block or Blitz a character who has the ball and has the Dump-off skill, one of your players on your team can do both a Pass Block and an actual Action as well... in any order (either first an Action, and then later a Pass Block... of first a Pass Block and then later an Action).

    It could result in that the Pass Blocking player, who succeeded in intercepting the ball after using Pass Block, can then do any kind of Action as well. Or, befor you Block or Blitz the ball carrier with Dump-off, you use an Action to run your best Intercepter closer to the Dump-offer so that it can then use Pass Block to try and intercept the ball if the opponent decide to use Dump-off when another of your players Block/Blitz that character.

    I am sure many people already knew this though. I have just never used Pass Block my self befor, so I never encountered the situation where I could do this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015