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Tactics [Skaven] Fouling Tactics and lineup?

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Jasper, May 26, 2013.

  1. Jasper

    Jasper Member

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    One of my biggest weaknesses is fouling. I'm terrible at getting in good fouls while keeping my offense or defense going, and so it's something I'm trying to work on.

    I figured my present Skaven team would be a good place to start as Linerats seem well suited to the task, but I'm having a hard time fitting a fouler into my roster:

    Code:
    UNDERSTONE RAIDERS
      O Krakut           : 
      Z Crykit           : Claw, Mighty Blow, Guard, Tackle
      Z Trice Creep      : Claw, Mighty Blow, Guard
      R Wyose Chitter    : +AG, +AG, Block, Sidestep, Pass Block
      R Pwytzh           : +AG, Wrestle, Tackle
      T Sluyk            : -AV, +ST, Block, Fend, Accurate
      L Kwecut           : ???
      L Ieeable Nibbler  : Kick
      L Skreych          : +ST, Block, Frenzy
      L Chircut          : ???
      L Fitit Slick      : 
      L Queei            : -AG, Wrestle
    
    Part if it is that I've suffered a bunch of Linerat attrition, but I'm also not sure where to place a fouler. For defense I field the Ogre, Thrower, 2 Blitzers, 2 Runners, 3 Scrimmage rats, Kicker, and ST 4 Linerat. I guess a fouler would normally go where the ST 4 rat is, but as it stands I'm not sure how to work one in.

    I've got two normal skillups on rookie linerats and normally I'd take wrestle, but now I'm considering giving one Dirty Player and hoping he survives... It feels kind of crazy to me, but then again I suspect I'd really benefit from a little DP. Anyone else try this?

    Also, while I'm asking, what about taking Fend before Wrestle? Anyone expirmented with that? Partly I'm tempted because my next match is against Khorne (Frenzy, little Block), but Wrestle drops your being-blocked odds from 75% -> 55% for a net 20%, while Fend often saves you from a 33% chance to fail dodge...

    Anyway, I'm just curious how other Skaven coaches would approach this.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2013
  2. jrpeart

    jrpeart Well-Known Member

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    I believe the standard options are to:
    • Not use the RO
    • Not use a Thrower
    • Put Kick on a utility Thrower build

    Any or all of these allows at least 1 linerat to stay off the LOS for DP purposes.

    Not that I'm a great Skaven coach or a great fouling coach.
     
  3. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    another option is to put the DP on the LOS. He'll attract extra hits and blitzes as well that might otherwise go towards more important players.

    anyways, one easy way to snag a foul while on offense or defense is to build the formations next to the foul target.

    for example, building a cage next to a downed player:
    D = downed player
    C= cage corner
    O=empty space
    B= Ballcarrier

    OCOC
    DOBO
    OCOC

    then just run the DP or designated fouler to kick in a foul (the key being not to make the fouler a key part of your cage, as you'll lose a corner if he gets spotted.

    You can expand on this by running up more players around the downed player (foul target) so that when the opposing team slams into your cage, they won't be able to mark up the side with the downed player as well, which also gives you a free running lane if you have to dodge out or reform a new cage.

    On defense, you can do the same thing, using the columns for assists instead of a cage. You don't even need column defense to pull this off....even one column alone with scattered TZs around it is an effective bulwark.

    Both fouling strategies keep players around the downed target and keeps those players serving multiple functions. The idea here is that if you simply stun the target, you should be able to give the foul another try next turn -OR- abandon the foul and continue moving your offense or defense

    You should be fouling no less than once every 3 turns if you have a DP (my opinion only, i have no maths to back this up). Consider that if the DP is fielded, thats his job....he might need to run in the occasional blocking assist, or even make a hit himself. He might also not have any targets he can easily reach to foul, but in most other situations i'll foul an armor 8 or less player with only 1 assist if i need to. consider its basically a free block with mighty blow and a :pow:!! its an automatic armor roll without risking the block dice (instead you risk the send-off)
     
  4. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    This thread seems like a good place to post some of the musing I've been doing on fouling. It seems to me that since the odds of a successful fouler getting sent off are 1/3 you don;t want to foul unless your chances of at least KOing your target are 1/3 or better. To achieve that means you need to break armor on a 5+ for a non dp player or 7+ with a dp player meaning that without dp you want at least 3 assists even against av 7 before you foul and as many as 5 against av 9. Whereas with dp you can make do with 1 and 3 respectively.

    Of course if you;re fouling with a line rat against a valuable target you could argue that even being slightly more likely to get your rat sent off than the opponent is fine because of the tv difference and I can buy that except we're only talking about KO's here. The chances of putting your opponent in the cas box with a non dp rat are only 13.9% even on a 5+ armor roll meaning that you are twice as likely to lose your rat for the game as they are to lose their player.

    It seems to me that fouling with any worse odds is risky play that may be rewarded same as any risky play but probably won;t be most of the time. But people seem to be more willing to go for risky fouls than risky passes, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me so I'd really appreciate other peoples' thoughts on this. Doubtless I'm being too conservative in some way but I;d love to hear some counter arguments for my own peace of mind.

    As an addenda, this also makes dp really awesome skill and I'd take it before wrestle on a line rat.
     
  5. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    #1. a deep bench doesn't matter unless you use it. Fouling valuable players with less valuable players is good, even if you get sent off, AS LONG AS YOUR BENCH CAN TAKE IT.

    #2. Fouling is done at the end of a turn (usually), and is most often done as insurance on the future of the game - ie. i remove this player now and the game will be better for me. Passing, on the other hand, is usually a critical action. A passing turnover often spells death for the team that made the error. The ball will be on the ground. The ball will generally be in 1 or less tacklezones, as the person passing would be counting on the ball being in the hands of the receiver. The ball will also, by the nature of passing, be in a spot that is disadvantageous...if you have 3 squares of movement left, and nothing in your way, generally the go-to action is to run the 3 squares, rather than pass the 3 squares. This is why people make "risky" fouls over risky passes....because the fouls tend not to be risky, and a turnover is usually expected (honestly, every time i don't get sent off, especially after an injury foul, is a pleasant surprise).

    #3. With a 5+ chance to break armor, you have roughly a 1 in 3 chance to be sent off, and a 13.9% chance to injure your target. I concede that as fact. I'll even agree that a KO is usually a nice foul result as well, given relative value of fouler to foulee (no one fouls a rookie goblin with a level 3 blitzer!). The odds that are being discounted here are the fact that a 5+ armor break gives you an 83-ish% chance to remove that player from the next TURN. Same odds as a 2+ handoff. A good rule of thumb for fouling is: "plan for the stun, be happy for anything more." If your drive will be helped by removing an opposing player for a single turn more than it will be helped by having an extra player (or even an even-up amount) its probably a good risk....an example? sure! Say you're playing against undead and you just knocked over a mummy with a crapton of assists to pull it off while you're on offense. You foul that mummy with those assists as well because if you pull off even a stun, your cage will be WAY past that mummy by the time he gets up and moving 2 turns from now.

    #4. Fouling is gratifying. Very very very gratifying. I played Barristan in one of our CC games (my 1 draw). He's a great guy who plays well, and i was looking at scoring the tying TD somewhere midway through the second half. During my drive, i downed one of his L2 linemen. My dedicated fouler, Lenny Kravitz (he's a bad bad man...) caved in his skull with a foul, just flat killing him. Despite some impressive play on both sides of the ball and a great game, that was easily the most rewarding, remembered moment of that game. Fouling is fun, its one of the things that sets blood bowl apart from simply being a turn-based adaptation of american football or rugby.

    #5. Just another reiteration of #3, but pressing home a different point. ALWAYS foul a player MORE valuable than the fouler. Keep in mind that this does NOT talk about TV or skills or anything else. I'll foul a skill-less lineman with a norse werewolf on T12 if that lineman happens to be prone inside my cage because that was the only place i could move the ballcarrier to, and that lineman would end up being key to the other team cracking my cage to stop me scoring. At that moment, despite my fouler being worth 2 to 3 times the TV of the foulee, the foulee is more valuable to his respective team (and the game!). In most cases, you'll be fouling with a 1-2 skill lineman (any more skills and you just give him fend and put him on the LOS til he dies) worth, AT MOST, 100TV. Most of the "juiciest" foul targets tend to be higher than that - sometimes several times higher. A rookie wardancer is 120 TV. A level 5 wardancer with +ST, MB, Tackle, Strip ball is 240 TV....i'd foul that wardancer with a non-DP lino with no assists if i could....hell i'd even leave my ballcarrier with less protection if it was early enough in the game and i could potentially remove the biggest star from a team on T1. Read Danton's blog for Mad Missionary Mob. He talks about his plans for his game against Dreamy in the CCXI regular season and how his gameplan revolved around taking the treeman down and fouled out as fast as possible. It is impossible to just look at the relative chances for KO/injury vs. being sent off. You HAVE to consider the relative value of the players (keeping in mind that the value of a DPer that doesn't foul is less than that of a rookie, since he's bloating your TV an extra 20 points!).

    #6. The least used reason probably....sometimes you foul IN ORDER to get sent off. In a game against fallowheart's nurgle with my team of guard-spammed orcs, i isolated his ST5 Nurgle warrior in a sea of guard-happy orcs, with a DP lino of my own lurking dangerously nearby. He attempted a -4 assist foul on a downed black orc. He had literally no way to break armor (10+ on 2d6 with a -4 penalty). He told me next turn that he threw the foul just to TRY to get sent off, as that was an incredibly valuable player on his team, and he didn't want him permanently injured by the inevitable +6 assist DP foul that would likely hit him if he stayed there.

    In short....i like fouling....a lot. Expect most of my teams to sport up to 2 DPs for 50k or less lino value teams
     
  6. Fallowheart

    Fallowheart Active Member

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    Ha! Limdood, i totally remember that. :D

    want to add to this by staying... drop the Ogre, add three linerats and foul like a g*dd*mn banshee. I NEEDED to add this to my game w/ my Skaven and didn't. linerats are cheap, cheap, double cheap... getting DP is just a friggin bonus. you can put assists anywhere in the world you need then with 4 GRs, you can't put a price on that.

    Last point to add to what Limdood said:

    #7: You foul to stop the Stall. pick a valuable player when he's caging up by your endzone (it happens with skaven, lets face it)... knock his @$$ over and drop a 6+ assisted foul on him, and KEEP DOING IT. he'll run that ball in faster than i can get drunk at 20p pint night at the local pub. ;)
     
  7. Jasper

    Jasper Member

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    Chances of me dropping the Ogre are zero as I find them entirely too handy (once they skill up). I'm certainly not going to drop the ST 4 Thrower either (despite the -AV), nor sit that much TV on the bench.

    I guess that leaves me with one of the scrimmage linerats, which is pretty much what I expected. I'm probably better off waiting until I can get a deeper bench anyway, as I've only just gotten to 12 players and would really prefer 13 or 14 before I get too heavily into fouling.

    I think I'll take Wrestle now, then perhaps DP in place of Fend on one for his second skill, at which time hopefully the team has a bit more bench.


    Anyway, thanks to all, and especially Limdood!
     
  8. r3dknight

    r3dknight Member

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    Wrestle is a good choice, since you still need downed targets before you can foul them.
    Wrestle them down, then stomp.

    I play human and let me tell you, fouling isn't a planned tactic since I can't seem to get a DP Lino. First Lino gets kick. Second and Third Lino double rolled for Guards.
    For me, I only start fouling when I have a man advantage on the field.
    Because 11 v 10 setups means you are more likely to have easier time to setup stomp assists. And if one of your fouler get sent off, you still play 10 v 10 for this drive.
     
  9. Boffa

    Boffa Active Member

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    I just took a bribe against some Khorne and went to town receiving first. Fouled every turn for first half and while I failed to actually take out any players removed 3 from the pitch early (1 guard) and it really helped me win comfortably. I like fouling guard players at low tv, taking out a guard is so significant. regen +apo of khorne is annoying but they still stay of the field.

    Whats my point..... if they only have one guard/tackle etc then foul them get them out and life is a lot easier. oh and be wary of fouling regen if you don't have a bench!
     
  10. Blasscend

    Blasscend Member

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    For that drive. Which can come back crashing. Had that in UM sat, he only failed 1 in 4 regens. And one of those players had mb and later -agi'd a lino and mng'd a blitzer. So, big difference. Annoying, really.
     
  11. Jasper

    Jasper Member

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    I once looked at it something like this, before I played a few seasons of Orca Cola and saw fouling done right. It's brutal and effective even without a player advantage, leveraging short term disabling of players only slightly misplaced into long term advantage -- despite the at first glance unappealing odds of KO+injury vs. getting sent off. Anyone getting directly hurt or KO'd is certainly nice, but not necessary for the tactic to be effective.

    Sadly I find myself not quite able to find enough slack in my offense/defense or roster to foul effectively without leaving an opening, even to the extent of inducing bribes and yet not using them. A weakness I'm aiming to rectify!
     
  12. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Limdood... I think you didn't mention a good consequence of fouling...

    Creating the perception that there is a risk of suffering fouling means that the oppo will not leave players alone. He will try to keep them in 2s or 3s at least. So even Str 4 players will have LESS FREEDOM of movement... he won't do risky plays on ball carrier fearing to have a player isolated.

    Remember... you don't need to foul to do this... just create the perception. Either by some fouls before or having a DP player still on field. Even if u don't foul the oppo will play less openly.
     
  13. r3dknight

    r3dknight Member

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    Meta-Bowling? :O
    Pretty cool idea.
     
  14. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    Jasper. One great time to foul is during the "1" part of a 2-1 grind.

    Just to remind, in a 2-1 grind, you're supposed to stall as long as possible on each of 2 possessions in order to score at the last possible moment. This gives some moderate opportunities for fouling...they may not be ideal, but odds are you're going to smackdown a couple of good players and at least get a +1 or +2 assist foul in. The real money here comes from the opposition's possession. You're trying to encourage them to score fast, so using all 11 guys to get in the way of their cage and slow them down is counterproductive. Instead, leave 2-3 safeties (so the oppo can't cage up in your backfield and stall on their possession!), have 2-3 cage harrassers, which leaves you 5-7 men for a dedicated kill squad, who can set up assists and hunt down useful opposition players , then surround and foul them. You get a twofold benefit...the normal benefit of removing players via fouls (in these cases, anything less than a KO can be disappointing) AND telling your opponent that every turn he stalls means another +7 assist foul! In the latter case, stunning or even failing to break armor can be equally effective, as it still gets across to your opponent that you're willing to grind his players into the turf.
     
  15. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Hi Lim and others, thanks for the answers, particularly the arguments about TV and a deterrent are important I think and in those circumstances I'd go for lower odds fouls now I think. I'm also going to pick up a dp to make fouling more likely to be profitable since getting in 4-5 assists on a foul can be prohibitive. Nonetheless I'm not sure I'd go for an unassisted dp foul on a lvl 5 wd - the odds just seem too much against you and Skaven tend not to be able to throw players away (unlike the walking dead teams whose players are both durable and cheap and who only need to have a bench for fouling). The exception would be when I'm already up in players when fouling can suddenly turn a lead into a rout.
     
  16. Jasper

    Jasper Member

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    Such leveled Wardancers are the /best/ pieces to foul, and I'd definitely put the boot in even unassisted (well, with a low level linerat), and even without DP.

    You have but to attempt it once to watch your opponent scurry to protect their favorite player. I've been on the receiving end of that with Witch Elves, and knowing that once you're down you're going to stay down really curtails how you can use them.
     
  17. Jasper

    Jasper Member

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    Yeah, that part of "make them score quickly" fouling is great, and the one situation I have down. It's the other times when I find it tricky without leaving openings, especially when playing with 2 minute turns.
     
  18. danton

    danton Well-Known Member

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    I am a true fouling convert and will try and have a DP on every team if possible! It has so many uses, either for taking out important targets (like Headsplitter in turn 2 of my last OCC match for example and Slibli in turn one the match before that!), or as a Piling On deterrent just by positioning it in the vicinity of a PO player.

    Of course Nuffle can stick a spanner in the works and make your first foul a 1+1, but some well timed fouls can also make all the difference between winning and losing, so I definitely recommend getting a DP on a skaven team when you have 13 or 14 players and a decent bench.

    My favourite team to foul is lizardmen, as the saurii can often get isolated and there is no better way to thin their numbers than by stamping on their heads with lots of little boots! :D
     
  19. Limdood

    Limdood Well-Known Member

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    and coincidentally, Lizardmen seem to be one of the worst teams for throwing fouls, with expensive skinks that are both few in number, and are already being hunted by the opposition!
     
  20. Barmution

    Barmution Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, getting fouled with Lizardmen can be a nightmare as your prime assets of av9 and st4 being totally negatable. Add to this what Limdood says about Lizzies being crap foulers themselves and it's going to be tough to face a team with dedicated foulers. Better stay on your feet if you can, mr. Saurus!