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Tactics Skill allocation advice IV

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Nikolai II, Apr 11, 2015.

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  1. lawastooshort

    lawastooshort Member

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    My AG5 Blodge vampire levelled up. I was mostly just thinking Sidestep, but then I wondered if anything else might be better?

    (I don't use him particularly for Gazing more than any other vampire on the team - his main role is to prance about looking like a slow super elf and then double 1 the easy dodge away)
    (His vampire friends are a Blodge Sidestep, a Blodge/MB/Tackle, and a Dodge)
     
  2. Everblue

    Everblue Active Member

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  3. Arthur Wynne

    Arthur Wynne Member

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    I would take Leap like a shot -but Vampires don't use it as well as elves (slower, poor synergy with Bloodlust and they don't need it as much thanks to Gaze) so something else might be better. Sure Hands? With AG 5, Dodge and Sure Hands you've got a great retriever and ball carrier.
     
  4. lawastooshort

    lawastooshort Member

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    Thanks both.

    I did think about Leap, but I’ve got no experience of using it at all. It would be a straight 2+ every time though, right? But yes, Blood lust and not so fast MA. On the other hand, I’ve been using him to do a lot of dodging through tackle zones to get the ball, so a single 2+ would be better than three 2+/3+ rolls….

    Sure Hands would be sensible given I use him to retrieve the ball a lot, but I don't know if it's best (I have been advised vamps can take better skills when asking about my AG4 thrall – he now has Sure Hands) and there is very little Strip Ball in the league. At the moment.

    Given the length of this league and turnover of teams, he is extremely unlikely to go beyond his 5th skill. I think the problem is I don't really know what I need in terms of roles. I have a hitter, I have a blodge sidestepper who might get Frenzy, I have a developing something, and then I have AG5, and not enough of an idea what is the best use of AG5.
     
  5. Arthur Wynne

    Arthur Wynne Member

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    There are three potential uses for AG 5: Long passer, sacker/cagebreaker and retriever.

    A Vampire team doesn't so much want a Long Passer and your guy isn't built for that role anyway. A sacker/cagebreaker could be nice but Vampires already have a lot of tools for attacking cages and Leap isn't an ideal pick for them anyway for previously mentioned reasons.

    In my experience on my Dark Elf team, an AG 5 player allows you to pull off some truly baffling retrieval and repositioning plays, all the more so if you also have Dodge -granted that player had MV 7, but a vampire team has Hypnotic Gaze as an additional tool for shenanigans. So I stand by my suggestion of Sure Hands -with AG 5 and Dodge, dodging around a single player is 2+,2+, 2+ with a re-roll and that's actually _more_ likely than a single 2+ with no reroll for Leap. Granted that's best case, but I think it shows that the marginal value of Leap is low for this player. So I stand by my suggestion of Sure Hands -reroll skills are always a safe bet.

    Alternatively you could go for Sure Feet -with MV 6 all over your team you might often find yourself Going For It -but I don't know your playstyle and I think that option has less synergy, so I wouldn't pick it myself.

    Edit: Or you could pick Strip Ball yourself of course. You can dodge into a cage on a 3+ with a reroll even when you can't hypnotize a corner, and then you have a very good chance of getting the ball free.
     
  6. lawastooshort

    lawastooshort Member

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    Thanks.

    Yes, I had kind of thought myself into a Sure Hands / Strip Ball shaped corner myself (I think I agree that I don’t want Leap, he isn’t often a passer, and don’t want Sure Feet to encourage me into GFIs).

    I think what is counting against Strip Ball is that if Aristotle (the Vampire) dodges in and Strips the Ball, I’ve just used the player best able to get it. I’d rather have a good plan for when it’s free. Also, although I like the idea of getting pushes and also the ball loose, sooner or later the important ball carriers may get Sure Hands. If they don’t, I could always give Strip Ball to someone else, like, say, a ST4 thrall.

    So I think Sure Hands is looking quite likely, and then Side Step assuming he gets that far.

    edit - or the other way around. Side Step will help his mobility now, and rerolls can't do what Side Step does but can replace Sure Hands until there are Strip Ballers.

    Bother.
     
  7. Arthur Wynne

    Arthur Wynne Member

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    Don't overthink this, that's what I always do. Personally I'd take Sure Hands before Sidestep - rerolls can replace Sure Hands, but when the ball is free, it's great to have a reroll for a block or a dodge or a GFI while still retaining the safety on the pickup -and best of all to use no rerolls and save them for next turn. Vampires are an especially reroll-hungry team, after all - how many rerolls do you currently have?
     
  8. lawastooshort

    lawastooshort Member

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    I have 4, with 4 vampires. My Leader thrall died a bit. I have a while before I have to choose but think I'll go with SH unless someone convinces me otherwise - thanks again :)
     
  9. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I'd go for Pro.

    AG5 vamps are best used for Gazing. The difference between 2+ and 3+ for removing the key TZ is huge. The only skill that makes a gazing vamp even better is pro.
     
  10. mrt1212

    mrt1212 Member

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    Gaze on a 2+ is amazing. Pro is useful for blood lust and the occasional gaze that fails.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2015
  11. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Indeed. AG 5 vamps go Blodge Sidestep Pro without (much of) a question.

    (Sidestep means they are more difficult to handle since you are marking with them, usually near a ballcarrier, and means less risk of being surfed if gazing near the sidelines)
     
  12. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    As far as passing skills with norse / Zos is concernd if you are playing with a thrower ( 20K to start with pass ) then you may as well take accurate to make the pass 2+.
    Taking the thrower or not probably depends on the league.
     
  13. Phunbaba

    Phunbaba Active Member

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    Got a gutter runner with wrestle that just rolled doubles on one of my first Skaven teams. Was hoping to hear some suggestions. Personally I was thinking VLL, Prehensile Tail, or Horns.
     
  14. Arthur Wynne

    Arthur Wynne Member

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    Doubles on a Wrestle gutter is Horns no questions asked. He is now your blitzer/sacker. Take Dauntless later. (If I recall correctly the interaction between Dauntless and Horns should allow you to get easy 2d blitzes on ST 3 players.)
     
  15. Smakapotomus

    Smakapotomus Active Member

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    While I don't disagree with Arthur' post I'd have to say that early on you will get more bang for the buck with either 2-Heads or Guard. Gutters are still Str 2 & AV 7; do you want to put them in position to be blocked back. Let your Stormvermin (AV8) take the contact.
     
  16. crimsonsun

    crimsonsun Well-Known Member

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    The gutter Runner with Wrestle I'd look at two heads then go with tackle, sidestep and strip ball.

    The Vampire should be used for gazing with Side Step and Pro, though if thats not jumping out at you what about Jump Up to really maximise its ability to get where needed.
     
  17. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I would also go for 2 heads.
    Horns and Dauntless don't work well together.
    You add the ST from the horns 1st so against ST3 dauntless is useless.
     
  18. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't get tail on a wrestle gutter, or on any gutter in fact, guard is a lot more generally useful even if tail does combine well with dt (I'm actually not a big fan of DT gutters anymore having had one or two for several seasons and finding them only periodically useful). Two heads is great on all gutters and especially ball sackers, horns is not bad either since its more reliable than dauntless but I prefer 2 heads.

    I wouldn't completely ignore VLL though, 2+ leaps are very powerful and leap is for me a standard pick on a wrestle gutter (after tackle/stripball and dauntless). Sure its bloat for a while but when you do get leap you've got a hell of a player on your hands.
     
  19. sbr32

    sbr32 Well-Known Member

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    Level 4 Blodge Vampire rolled a normal 10. I assume I have to go with +MA but then again a Vampire faster than his Thralls isn't really helpful. Side Step otherwise.
     
  20. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    I think the common wisdom is that yes take the MA, its useful to be faster than your thralls if you ever start one square behind them or need to go round a player to reach them, also MA 7 makes 2 turning much easier.
     
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