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Tactics Some defense Line-ups

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by jawe, Sep 17, 2010.

  1. jawe

    jawe Member

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    Hey,

    my defensive line-ups are more like try and error and no real concept.

    So maybe we can share some ideas about formations.

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6882[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    This is my mostly used formation against almost any team. But for sure against agile teams.

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6883[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    This is something I tried now 2-3 times vs. bashy with OK success.

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6884[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    This one(or slightly different) is something I see several players do and I find it tricky to play against but I also don't like the fact that most of my players are so isolated.

    Would be awesome if someone else might share his formations or comment mine.

    @Coach: If there is one topic missing in all these great articles you wrote it's formations. please add this or forgive me if I was to stupid to find it :)
     
  2. jawe

    jawe Member

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    little addition(I can't edit because every time I do this I lose the play-maker links for some reason):

    If the last sentence sounds to offending I am sorry. I am not a native speaker.

    It's not supposed to sound this way. I mean it in a funny(but also encouraging) way :)
     
  3. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    Here are a few I tend to use:

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    [PLAY-CREATOR]6674[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6885[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    They all are fairly similar for the most part. I like having my LOS like that and my wings to be in those places so the only parts that change often are the four in the middle back field. Some teams change more then this (I have different formations if I'm playing as Khemri for example) but these are my standards.
     
  4. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    I like to use the last of Murkglows formations, but I think I will try the middle formation out. Seems to me it could be realy annoying with a little stand firm
     
  5. spworldtour

    spworldtour New Member

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    So, I pretty much just use 1 of 2 different defenses, depending on whether I am playing as a slow bashy team or a high move agil team, and whether I am playing against a high or low mvmt opponent.

    This is what I call the Orc D:

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6886[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    And yes, as you stated, it does spread your guys out some, but on the other hand, that's exactly what I want. Because I'm slower than my opponent (which is assumed when I pull out the Orc D) I want to make sure that at least 4 of my guys are free to move wherever they need to to fill the gaps in my line. Sometimes they need to support the front 3 to protect the middle of the field, or sometimes they need to be free to go mark the opposing catchers. Also, because you've got some much 'deep' protection, even if the opposing coach does run their catchers into my back line, I can recover quickly. If everyone was up near the LOS, catchers in my backfield will be very hard to mark, and there is no way to get good double coverage on them. Also, you'll notice I didn't keep perfect boxes. This is to make sure that my opponent can't get a crowd push on the bottom right corner. Most mid range teams have at least 1 Frenzy player and I find that people like to get that early crowd push if I give it to them.

    This is what I will play as WE's against Bashy teams:

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6887[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    There are a couple of things to this Defense. First, I'm protecting my high value targets from the Bashy teams. I don't want my thrower taking hits. (he's always got the most SPP on my WE teams) nor do I want people taking free hits on my catchers. So they are in the hardest place to get at. Secondly, I *want* my opponents to take the blitz on my wardancers, and if I can, get them to commit to a run play down one side or another. The first skill my WD's take is Sidestep, so I can avoid a side line push and most knockdowns on the dice. So by leaving my Wardaners out on the edge all alone like that, I'm baiting my opponent into committing to one side or the other. Lastly, due to my own high movement, I can get anywhere on the field I want to support a two die block or to start forming a cage slower. The biggest weakness to this set up, is that when I do get a blitz on the kickoff table, my Catchers are out of position to be able to race down the sidelines and try to get under the ball.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
  6. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I've not covered Kick Off formations yet, they have been planned for though, want to cover the players first.
     
  7. Ian

    Ian Member

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    I'll often tuck in more against faster, dodgier teams. If they go to one side hard it makes for easier recovery and if you've got a couple of tacklers sitting deep that space can prove too tempting for some players giving you a good chance of boxing them in or even recovering the ball early. Wouldn't do that if I was playing a 1-turner or anything, obviously.
     
  8. Thanatos

    Thanatos Member

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    I generally keep my LOS dudes as wide as possible.
    It means my opponents have to commit more players to knocking them down.

    And if they don't mark them all then they are free to move next turn.
     
  9. Frenz0rz

    Frenz0rz Member

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    My standard Lizardmen defence with a krox and 6 sauruses:

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6893[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    This is the sort of thing I'd use with any team who have weak players that need to be defended, such as a skaven team playing 4 gutter runners. Obviously it more or less crumbles once you lose one of the stronger players.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2010
  10. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    [play-creator]6885[/play-creator]

    I use this one with Skaven and put the four Gutter Runners in the wide zone positions. Trying to protect them all the time is a wasted effort in my opinion and they are in a far better position there.
     
  11. S1nner

    S1nner Member

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    If you play against a team with no ST4 and no Guard this is another excellent setup for skaven or any other agility team. Barring a rock or pitch invasion, punching a hole in your line requires either a one die block or getting very lucky on the LoS. If they want to attack your GRs(or catchers or whatever), they must give up a block next turn.
     
  12. Metalsvinet

    Metalsvinet New Member

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    S1nner> I wouldn't use that if the opponent has frenzy - unless you have sidestep on the wingers.
     
  13. S1nner

    S1nner Member

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    Yes, if an opponent EVER has frenzy you do not want to put players on the "front line" two spaces from the sideline.
     
  14. Runi

    Runi Member

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    Depends on the player with Frenzy. If it's a Minotaur, you're right. But what about an Ork or Human Blitzer? He would have two 2D-Blocks against him in that case or two 1D if the second player is marked and has no Guard. That is a risk I would be willing to take in certain cases.
    However, it can be avoided easily if you just move the linemen back one square. That's why I prefer a "half circle" front line against rather bashy teams. Although it has the disadvantage of players not being covered by a second player and can be blitzed more easily. Still, I use it especially with Wood Elves, because they are fast enough to compensate for one blitzed guy and few teams are quick enough to pose a real threat after the first blitz.

    It could look like this or similar, minor changes due to circumstances:

    [PLAY-CREATOR]6921[/PLAY-CREATOR]
     
  15. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Fwiw, I would certainly take on a blitz that has 2x 1 die Frenzy hits with one of my Block players if it meant crowd pushing an opponent and I didn't vitally need the blitz elsewhere.

    I would even be tempted with a 2 dice against followed by a one die depending on the player it would remove.
     
  16. Runi

    Runi Member

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    Sure, that's why you would move the lineman in S1nners example one spot back. That way it gets impossible to blitz someone out in the first turn. And it doesn't really weaken the defence in other respects significantly, especially if it's a gutter runner standing next to him, as he could be blitzed quite easily anyway.
     
  17. maxcarrion

    maxcarrion Active Member

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    I still wouldn’t assume safety on the wingers. Against most teams it should be ok but a well developed Dark Elf team can still make a fairly easy crowd push. I almost always elect to receive if I win the toss just because I have a pair of Witch Elves who are almost impossible to deny a crowd push. If the winger is held back a square the lvl 2 WE (just sidestep) will move to assist right on the sideline corner while my experienced WE (block, sidestep, leap) will jump over (for S1nner’s setup with the wingers dropped 1 back) or dodge past (for Runi, still 3+ into 1 tz but with a free reroll for dodge). S1nner’s is a much better defence against that as it’s a harder dodge/leap and I’d need a third man to cancel the assist on the second block to ensure 2d blocks. Runi’s also allows my assists to now be in scoring range :p

    Moral of this story is get sidestep or stand firm for your wingers, especially if you face dark elf :p
     
  18. Runi

    Runi Member

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    I never said S1nners defence was bad, quite the contrary ;). And as I said before: It really depends on the player who has Frenzy. Your tactic does work in case of two developed witch elves and then you might want to keep the defenders all in line. However, if you're facing a minotaur, that player will be out for sure if you keep them in front and the frenzy player can't get to you if you move one back. All I was saying is that you need to pay attention to the kind of Frenzy player you're facing when considering your defence options.


    About my own: It's just one possibility. I do use it mostly with Wood Elves and had some good experience with it. But of course, like the above formation, it's not equally good in every situation.
     
  19. maxcarrion

    maxcarrion Active Member

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    Sorry, didn’t mean to say these line ups are bad, I’m a terrible pedant and when someone says “impossible to blitz someone out in first turn” and I have blitzed someone out in the first turn against an identical setup I can’t help myself :p

    Of the 3 setups (S1nners, S1nners with the winger 1 square back and Runi’s) each has strengths and weaknesses.

    S1nners (3-8) is strong with low developed teams with an agi team defending against a str team it prevents any assists on the blitz so the blitzer either has to be high str (e.g. black orc) or roll only 1D, high str players almost never start with block so it’s hard to get a really good hit in, if the line has weaker players they can be hit easy enough but there will be a retaliation available. However the line is weak against frenzy, skilled players with S4+, faster teams etc.

    The S1nner variant (3-6-2) is much stronger against frenzy and requires a leap or hard dodge to crowd surf the winger however the wide zone guard can now be hit with an assist without necessarily giving retaliation. Particularly useful with a fast team against a possible frenzy team such as WE v DE or for a team such as Lizards where they could put Saurii on the wide zone guard positions to discourage exploiting it as a weak spot

    The Runi defence (3-4-4 ish) I’d say was a defence for a stronger team against a faster team, like orcs defending against Wood Elf. As the defence is quite deep it makes marking catchers and catching fast breaks much easier. Again the winger is going to take a fast agile frenzy blitz to crowd surf so is pretty safe although the wings are a little open to someone marking the wing guard and one of the backs and then pinning the winger to the sideline with the blitz. If my opponent didn’t have any frenzy (or my wing guards had side step or stand firm) I’d probably move the wing guard up and out one to close up running down the sideline without a blitz. I’d also probably move the two full backs out one to each side leaving one larger space down the middle rather than two smaller ones, one down each side. Although this makes it functionally the 3-4-4 defence from Coach’s article. Runi’s defence as shown is also a bit vulnerable against 1 turn TD machines as a player can make it all the way through with only 2 dodges (1 at -1) and a blitz that ends in just a push can make it 1 or 0 dodges for wing guard and winger respectively.

    One of the main problems with discussing defensives formations in general is it relies heavily on the skills/stats of your team and the skills/stats of your opponents as well as the scoreline, turn number and the result you want (I know, you want a win, but on turn 15, it’s 1-1 do you set up all one side and kick that side hoping you can blitz through and leaving your other side completely open to a TD if you fail or do you run a balanced setup and massively increase the chance of a draw, what if it’s group heats and only a win will get you through to the next round?). It’s not a terrible idea to start with a 3-4-4 formation and then make adjustments based on what’s on field (frenzy opponents, slide the wing guard in a square, wing guard has stand firm, slide him back out again, playing slow dwarves against fast skaven open up the gap between ranks to cover the backfield, outnumber the opponent and have a kicker shorten the gap between rank 1 and 2 to facilitate a blitz etc. etc. etc.
     
  20. splitj

    splitj New Member

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    Formations

    I was trying to look for formations on the site but cant find any. Is there a site for BB formations?

    and how do you take down a high ST ball carrier (ST5 or above) when facing a caging team like undead? it seem impossible...
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2011