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Chaos Dwarf Starting a Chaos Dwarf team

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by happygrue, Aug 21, 2010.

  1. happygrue

    happygrue New Member

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    I'd like to draft a Chaos Dwarf team in the near future, and I'm a bit torn with which direction to take things. There seems to be more flexibility in strategy than I was expecting in a dwarf team. I wanted to get some veteran's perspectives on how to start things off. One thing important thing to know about our league is that we also start by giving two different players 6 SPP each, and then allowing them to take one (nondoubles) skill, which then adds 40K to the value of the team. Questions about the best skills to pick to follow the teams.

    Drafting

    Option A

    1 (130) Bull Centaur
    6 (420) Chaos Dwarf Blockers
    4 (160) Hobgoblins
    4 (280) re-rolls
    for a total of 990K

    pros: Lots of rerolls. Great strong line, all of the Dwarves will be out there earning SPP from the get-go.

    cons: Only one Bull Centaur. The other Bull Centaur would plan on joining the team ASAP, as I can't think of anything else that I would spend money on until that happens.

    Option B

    2 (260) Bull Centaur
    5 (350) Chaos Dwarf Blockers
    4 (160) Hobgoblins
    3 (210) re-rolls
    for 980K.

    pros: both Bull Centaurs are starting.

    cons: fewer rerolls (less ball movement among other things).


    Strategy Overview

    One of the things I'm most excited about with this team is the combination of a, strong, durable line with some potential for big-play ball movement from some players. My objective with this team is to have the flexibility to break out with either a big run or pass or (preferably) the option of both. I anticipate using a cage some, but I also want my opponent to be worried about the backfield too. I imagine that both the hobgoblins and the centaurs (or one of them) will do ball handling.

    Depending on the other team, I might want to start with the Centaurs up on the line and picking the ball up with a hobgoblin, or possibly having a Centaur pick it up (did I mention that I need 3-4 rerolls?). Getting ball into the hands of a Centaur will be a key part of my offense, however it happens. That's where my questions come in, given that I can start off with 2 skill picks (on different players). Here is what I would like to see down the road. Let me know if this seems like a bad plan, or how I might best get there.

    1. Getting "Guard" on as many Dwarves as possible is key to all of my plans. With a line of 6 Dwarves and as much "Guard" as I can get I think I can go toe-to-toe with just about any other line out there. That gives me the option to beat up a weaker team while grinding away, or at least holding my own against a bashing team. After this is accomplished, then I can (try to!) exploit my other plans.

    2. Formost among said plans is a "Running Back" Centaur with the ball and some skills like Juggernaut (and/or Block? not sure about this one), Break Tackle, Sure Hands. Questions for this guy include which skill to take on a doubles roll? "Diving Catch" might be amazing, because it would open up the possibility of receiving the kick with a hobgoblin and then passing (accurately) to him and increasing his chances of getting the ball - after a successful accurate pass - to 8/9 (after a reroll) plus a chance to catch the scatter on a bad pass. It would also allow him to take "Kick-Off Return" and get some free catching rolls on a good number of kick-offs. It also might give some teams a real headache: Imagine a centaur blitzing around the corner of a line (or through in some cases), he pushes someone out of position, breaks a tackle on another and then he has diving catch and strength 4 in the backfield. How do you cover that? The point is not to actually DO it (perhaps once a game, if that?), but that there is some small of it happening. I would hate being a defender and knowing that there is, say a 15-20% (assuming some rerolls) chance that a centaur could end up with the ball behind my line. It's probably going to take 2-3 players to even have a chance of stopping him at that point, and that's assuming they can catch him.

    Another path to go down with a doubles roll would be to give him an option to pass. "Hail Mary", or "Accurate" followed by "Strong Arm" would be another way to give the defender fits. Then I can try to slip a hobgoblin or 3 around the line somehow for the pass - or if he spreads the line out enough to shut that down then I would hope to either beat that line up or break the running back through. Then a line of dwarves (with tackle!) stop the centaur from getting too mobbed in the backfield while he breaks tackles and juggernauts his wait to the end zone.

    Questions

    I assume that other player do something like this - does it work or is it too crazy for a serious team?

    Since I can start with 2 non-doubles skills, the big question is do I give two of The Dwarves guard and then feed SPP to the Centaurs in the hope of getting doubles? Or is it better to make one or both of the Centaurs into great players right at the start? And what skills? Block seems like a given on one of them, but the does the other take Juggernaut? Is a ball handler without Block (but with Juggernaut) reasonable, or is the block still crucial?

    Finally, should I even consider taking a Minotaur? Then I would imagine Juggernaut might end up being a waste on a Centaur, since I will want to blitz often with the Big Guy.
     
  2. happygrue

    happygrue New Member

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    Before anyone rips my crazy plan to shreds, just consider the fun factor of your Centaurs making diving catches... :D
     
  3. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I personally start with 4 rerolls and almost never use the Bulls as the ball carrier. You want your strength outside the cage hitting things. You would also want an Apothecary rather than a second Bull first (you read my starting rosters for Chaos Dwarf article?)

    If you get two skills first no question in my mind to get Guard on two Dwarfs, they are your slowest players to skill up.

    Bulls can score their fair share anyway when you blitz one into their backfield and manage to get hold of the ball. I hate using them on offence as the ball carrier, though some coaches seem to get away with doing so.

    Regarding passing plays with the team, I don't really like passing it with Elf teams who have AG4, doing it with AG2 and 3 players is just bizarre. Though if you are looking at being more fun and creative with the team compared to playing to their most effective then by all means do so.

    Dodge would be the best double for a Bull who you are using to run the ball. Block is also WAY better than Juggernaut. The latter can only be used when blitzing but offers no protection from opposing attacks.

    Diving Catch is just mental!

    You want to give a ST4 player Diving Catch and Kick Off Return, that is 16 SPP and then he has two skills that are useless for most turns in a game and is ineffective at anything else. He would also then be worth 170k of team value. I would rather have 4 Hobgoblins compared to that and 10k change.

    Obviously it your team to do with as you wish, I'm just pointing out the downsides to the plans you have outlaid.

    Another thing to consider is that when passing with a Bull you get 1SPP for the completion, a casualty would get you 2 and a TD 3. So taking passing skills would actually slow down their development. You are also passing to AG3 players, this is going to lose you the ball a lot of the time.

    Also who are you going to be blitzing with...?

    Hope that gives you some things to mull over.
     
  4. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    I personally think either build can work fine it just depends on what you want and what you're willing to give up.

    Not starting with all of your dwarves is a problem because they are easily your hardest men to skill up as they are almost entirely dependent on casualties and MVP. Not starting with both Centaurs is a bit less painful because centaurs are much easier to skill up (being better fighters with their Str4 and being much faster and thus better at scoring in a pinch or when you have the opportunity).

    Still starting with both Centaurs is a great advantage early on and 4 rerolls are not totally required. I'd probably go the 4 reroll route but I wouldn't think less of the other option if you went with that.

    Whatever your choice the Apoth is a must as your first purchase. Nothing worse then one of your dwarves or Centaurs rolling poorly and dieing. After that either your final dwarf or your centaur would be my purchases (and your 4th reroll last, if you go with the 3 reroll option). A Mintaur is probably worth it at some point but only after you have bought everything else you want and even then skipping it isn't a bad choice.

    For your 2 free skills I would invest in your dwarves. As has been said they are by far your hardest men to skill up so anything you can do to help them is well worth it. Likely Guard on two of them is the best option. For your Centaur I agree that block is better then Juggernaut. Block is always useful and for both offense and defense with or without blitzing.

    Finally I would also add another voice of caution regarding trying to use the Chaos Dwarves team for passing (or taking passing skills on them). They are simply not built for it. Often you'll only have 3 hobgoblins on the field (or only 2 if you take a Mino) and those are your only Agi 3 players on the team. Add to this that Mv6 is your best speed (except the Centaurs with sprint but they cannot be available all the time and holding them back for the odd pass is hurting your team in other ways) and it's just not realistic in my opinion. I mean it's nice to say "Well it's a nice option to have." but that option isn't free. Those skills are taking the place of skills that will be useful all the time rather then skills that are only useful rarely or never.

    Also don't forget that you don't have to take a double over a normal skill, and often it's not the better choice. Worry about getting Block, Break Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, and maybe Tackle and Stand Firm on your Centaur before you worry about doubles. Some are good, Dodge and Sidestep for example but you can make a very effective player without any doubles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
  5. Grumbledook

    Grumbledook Member

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    I've got a chaos dwarf team on stuntyleeg.com that started with the 4 reroll team

    they have played 7 won 7 now Da Leeg - Online Blood Bowl League CRP / LRB6

    the centaurs still haven't got a single skill between them though the team plays well enough anyway

    I recommend getting the mino, though many dislike them, ST5 + horns + an assist + Frenzy is lovely

    if you have a copy of the BOTOCS client then you can watch replays of the games if you are interested, there is a link to it in the general forum
     
  6. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    I´m all for the mino, it is a brilliant killing machine. Delete any plans to pass the ball exept as a turn 8 or 16 desperate meassure.

    I fully agree to giving your skills to the dwarf blockers. Starting with two guardsmen is a huge advantage and will protect your cage well.

    I would try to make the first TD´s with your bulls, to skill them up fast, but I would never take ballhandling skills on them. Only skills designed to kill opponents or protect your team.

    Chaos dwarfs is all for running the ball.

    Crasy as I am I would start with this build:

    1 x Mino
    2 x bulls
    4 x dwarfs
    4 x hobgobs
    2 x reroll
     
  7. happygrue

    happygrue New Member

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    thanks a lot for the feedback everyone!

    I have indeed read Coach's excellent Chaos Dwarf article - good stuff! And yes, I am looking to take things in a more "fun and creative direction" than the standard running game. I just don't have interest in playing a team that has no passing game of any kind. I also mentioned in my post - but I should be more clear - that I don't actually intend to throw many passes. The idea is to have that threat available. So the big question I have are more "would it be worth it to devote 1-2 skills to this to have some ability to pass, or is it enough to occasionally just run a hobo into the backfield, without devoting a skill to Hail Mary or what have you.

    I am persuaded by the case against Juggernaut for Bulls. I can imagine uses for the skill, but it's just not Block. Anyone who might be getting the ball should have block. The main reason I was considering it at all was to negate the effects of Wrestle or Stand Firm.

    I'm also persuaded that an apothecary is a good first buy, and that the Mino is worth considering down the road. I think I'll pass on taking him at the start because it seems he will skill up quickly, if I get him 10 games down the line or what have you.

    Also, thanks for the heads about about the BOTOCS client - I just looked at it and I will surely watch those replays when I get some time.

    One other question: Other than a Merc Bull or Mino, what might I want to spend 100-300K worth of inducements on for this team? Is a wandering apothecary a good bet until I can get one on staff?
     
  8. Grumbledook

    Grumbledook Member

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    regarding inducements, it depends on your opponent's team and what you look to get out of the game

    if you are worried about getting beat up then take an apothecary, if you are looking more to win then I would pick inducements that would help you do that

    if they just have 11 players you could perhaps get some mercs (though there may be some cheaper secret weapon stars) to do some fouling with

    if they only have one or two rerolls than a master chef can really cause them problems

    as for passing skills if it is just for a threat rather than actually passing that often, you are just using that TV up instead of taking skills that would actually be useful

    you already mentioned juggernaut, which isn't taken enough imo, do you really think strong arm would help your team more? that is questions you should be asking yourself, imo chaos dwarfs would need quite a few skills before passing becomes an actual threat to the opposing team

    if you wanted a hitting team with a passing threat, then chaos pact would probably be better, perhaps norse or something with passing skill access on someone on the team