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Underworld Starting roster and development discussion

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Hasdrubal, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    I've launched a league with some friends, everyone is busy painting their team before the start of the season, which will last for 12 games (+2 pre-season games). As the most experienced player, I settled for the Underworld team :D

    I am designing my starting roster, which currently consists in
    - 1 Warpstoned Troll
    - 2 Skaven Linemen
    - 2 Skaven Blitzers
    - 2 Skaven Throwers
    - 5 Goblins
    - 3 RR
    - 1 Apothecary
    Total value 990k

    The league looks like it will have a fair amount of agile teams (2 elf teams out of 6 participants). Would you consider a different roster to start with?

    As far as development is concerned, the blitzers will become support players and target the weaker enemies (guard/tackle and guard/mighty blow), the linemen will do they best to stay alive (Wrestle as a first skill), 1 thrower will evolve into an offensive thrower, the second into a defensive one.

    I am a bit puzzled by the goblins development though. I believe they should be best used with mutation skills, so I'd probably do the following:
    - ball retriever: Big Hand/Two Heads
    - catcher/retriever: Catch/Extra Arm
    - catcher: Catch/Diving Catch
    - all-purpose guys: Side Step/?

    I haven't yet decided whether the troll should be developed as an offensive player or a defensive one:
    - offensive player: Claw/Grab (?)
    - defensive player: Guard/Stand Firm

    C&C welcome, let's discuss!
     
  2. Joemanji

    Joemanji New Member

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    I would start with 4 rerolls. Believe me, you'll need them, and they cost 140K once the league has started. Much easier to fill up on Goblins at only 40K a time later.

    I wouldn't worry about the APO to start. Just buy him after game 1. The only players that are too expensive to lose are the Blitzers.

    I started with:

    Troll
    2 Blitzers
    2 Throwers
    2 Linemen
    4 Goblins
    4 rerolls
    30K saved for APO.

    I think this is a solid base, as with a largely AV7 team you are going to be playing with journeymen in your first few games, even with 12 men and an apothecary. I think the extra reroll is just a useful for keeping your players alive in the short term anyway, as failing an early roll an giving away blocks on half your team is always going to hurt.
     
  3. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Underworld are good fun though I started mine without an apothecary and 4 rerolls.

    Two heads should be the first skill on all the Goblins unless you roll a double then you can specialise them. Two heads is pretty useful for any build with them and well they don't tend to last long being Goblins. Side Step and Diving Tackle is the standard stunty player progression and is very useful.

    I'd get guard on the troll you could do with that extra assist, Strong arm wouldn't be terrible after that for one turn touchdown attempts either.
     
  4. Joemanji

    Joemanji New Member

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    Location:
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    As Grum says, Two Heads should be the first pick on any Goblin. You can then develop them for a variety of roles:

    Two Heads / Big Hand / Extra Arms
    Two Heads / Horns

    .. being the classics. I also like Catch on one as a failed Animosity can burn your reroll.

    Blitzers are a dilemma. Guard is great on them at some point, because otherwise the team will get outmuscled. But they can develop quickly for the killer build ... MB, Claw, Piling On. At least one guy like this early on can help you take opposition players off the pitch as they take yours.

    The Throwers and Linemen are best served by Block first IMO. As the strongest players in the team, they'll need to be throwing blocks, and it will also help them survive when hit. Tackle is great on linemen, as Blitzers have too many other good options to bother with it. Throwers get good value from Extra Arms, and with Two Heads they can be effective runners.

    For the Troll, I think Tentacles is a great pick. It allows you to get the most out of the player without activating him, which is always good on a RS player. Guard and Prehensile Tail also work in this way. Claw is another option to make him a real killer.
     
  5. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

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    94
    With Underwold is it a good idea to use the Skaven linemen as linemen?

    It seems is little reason why most opponents couldn't get 2D blocks against the whole underworld LOS whatever you put on it, so the extra point of strength isn't overly significant save in maybe taking fewer 3D blocks.

    The goblins may be stunty, but they also have dodge, so, epsecially against opponents without block (like big guys who haven't rolled doubles) the gobs actually have a higher survivability on the LOS.

    But moreover rookie gobbos seem cheap, expendable, and you don't really want too many SPPs on too many goblins anyway or you'll bloat your TV. Whereas the Skaven linemen, having gained access to mutuations, look to be able to develop into positional quality players with some SPPs if you don't get them killed.
     
  6. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I use goblins on the LOS for the reasons you said.

    Also goblins can dodge away easier if you wanted to do that as well. It isn't nice against Tackle teams but they are fairly expendable and vs some teams I may put the Troll there as well as they have high armour and regeneration. It isn't nice to play a whole drive after losing three players straight away!
     
  7. Lamoron

    Lamoron New Member

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    A bit late, but my two cents... The primary weakness of the Underworld team is the LoS. There's one way to avoid AV7 on the line, but having both Blitzers and the Troll on it, is a recipe for disaster. This means you need someone else to take the hits, so let's look at what we have to work with.

    Skaven Throwers
    Skaven Linemen
    Goblins

    You really need the Throwers and their lovely skills to play defense, and thus they cannot be allowed to be tied down on LoS. Linerats are probably your only source of tackle, frenzy, kick and all the other utility skills, so they're out as well, leaving only Goblins. So how do you make Goblins work on the LoS?

    Foul Appearance: The bread and butter of the LoS Goblin. FA will save you a hit once in a while, but the real bonus is the chance for your LoS fodder to pull an action or a re-roll out of the opposition while they take the otherwise free hits on you.

    Sidestep: Getting hit only once is ofcourse a brilliant idea. Sidestep is widely used and you all know the benefits.

    Likely this will be the end of the Goblin anyway, but should you be so lucky that he's still alive, I'd have a look at Two Heads and then Jump Up. A double on the second skill will prompt a decision. Either you'll choose Wrestle to make the ultimate LineGobbo, or you'll pull him away from LoS duty and try keeping him alive.

    LoS Underworld Goblin
    Normal: Foul Appearance, Sidestep
    Doubles: Wrestle, Fend
    Stats: +AV (Any other stat is either useless or completely changes the Goblin away from LoS duty)

    /Lamoron
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  8. Lamoron

    Lamoron New Member

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    The Warpstone Troll.

    Developing this lad has a huge impact on the team. Like a Rat Ogre on a Skaven team, this lad brings strenght skills, which the team lacks in major ways. Unlike the Rat Ogre the Warpstone troll sucks. He does have Mutation access, so when he get's a few skills he does make a major comeback.

    With stats and skills as a basic Troll to work with, here's my thoughts. You have a slow and unreliable oaf, that needs a babysitter to avoid being really stupid, and does not have general access to make up for his failings as a player, so what can we do with him?

    My favourite is the support/utility Troll. You can never count on him to kill anything, so I favour giving him a use beyond hitting, as my first choice. Guard allows him to assist the team, and as he's normally activated at the end of the round, due to unreliability, he'll still have his tacklezones in most rounds.

    Next up is Claws, seeing as he can take them on normals, and they increase his personal power a lot against most teams. With Claw/MB he has a chance of seeing his third skill before the world comes to an end.

    Third up it's a personal preference. If you tend to end up Blitzing with him, go for Juggernaut to keep him standing, but he's really not Juggernaut material. Personally I'd go for Tentacles instead, to keep some dinner from dodging away from him and increasing his utility for the team as a defensive player as well.

    Doubles should go to Block and Pro (in that order) to increase his reliability as much as possible. Stats are pretty useless with the notable exception of +ST ofcourse.

    Offensive Support Troll:
    Normal: Guard, Claw, Tentacles
    Double: Block, Pro
    Stats: +ST

    My own pride and joy, has Guard, Claw, and +ST, so I'm only missing a double for the perfect build. I can't see building him any other way due to his low move, negatraits, and poor agility.

    Alternative builds could be the one turner, though this should be only for giggles as it's still very unreliable.

    Passing Troll:
    Normal: Strong Arm, Break Tackle,
    Double: Pro or Pass
    Stats: +AG, +MA

    There's the defensive Troll, but I feel this duty is best left to other players on the team, and the Underworld team needs some sort of offensive utility Troll.

    Defensive Troll:
    Normal: Tentacles, Prehensile Tail, Stand Firm
    Double: Diving Tackle, Tackle
    Stats: +ST, +MA

    /Lamoron
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  9. Funny Valentine

    Funny Valentine New Member

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    Interestinf post, I think I will make an underworld team for my next season, so I hope you will continu!
     
  10. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    The league has started, I have so far a 0-2 loss against Wood Elfs and a 3-2 win against Dark Elfs. We have plenty of pointy ears in the league.

    No player has gained a skill yet (the game against Wood Elfs being pretty bad as my only source of SPP was the MVP. Yep, it sucks), but I'll probably go the following way for development:
    - troll: Tentacles/Guard (if it ever skills up)
    - skaven throwers: 1 ball retriever (Big Hand, Block), 1 utility player (Block, ?)
    - skaven linemen: 1 Wrestle blitzer (Wrestle), 1 Block Blitzer (Block)
    - skaven blitzers: 2 muscle support (Guard)
    - LoS goblins: 2 punching balls (Foul Apperance)
    - potential scoring goblins: Two Heads

    I doubt all players will ever get a 2nd skill, so I'm trying to specialize them a bit more than usual for their 1st skill.
     
  11. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    A team update after the 1st game of the league, which I won 3-0 against dark elves.

    The troll and 1 goblin have reached 8 SPP and gained a skill, with 3 more players at 5 SPP. The goblin got a standard skill, I went with 2 Heads. I rolled an 11 for the troll and can take either +AG or a standard skill. I am tempted to go for Tentacles considering 50% of the league teams are elves, yet +1 AG could be tempting... Your recommendation?

    The best play of the game: I set up the troll behinf the LoS since I am receiving in H2, and the ball scatters off the pitch. The troll gets the ball, and walks to a TD 4 turns after, carving a path through the opposing elves. :)
     
  12. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    +AG on the Troll isn't that great, if you are just going to take it for throw team mate, then strong arm will give the same benefit for less TV

    I also think that with only the one Troll on the team taking skills to increase TTM success hampers him for any other role you want him to do.

    Tentacles looks like a good choice if you are in an elf heavy league though.
     
  13. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    That's exactly what I thought... Going from AG& to AG2 isn't a great package when considering MV4 and Really Stupid. The troll's role is, when kicking, to create a magnet that will hopefully swamp in 2 opposing players and strengthen the LoS. When receiving, I actually like to keep in behind the LoS in case the ball scatters :D
     
  14. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    The 2nd game of my league took place last week-end. I played againstthe orc team of the league. I won 4-0, your got 4 guys injured (3 goblins and a linerat), hopefully nothing critical happened to the injured players.

    So far, the skilled players are:
    - troll (8 SPP): Tentacles. Worked great when I needed it against a Dark Elf Witch.
    - skaven blitzer (6 SPP): Guard
    - skaven thrower (7 SPP): Guard (I was lucky and rolled a doubled)
    - skaven lineman (8 SPP): Wrestle (we have lots of Blodge players in the league, so this guy will become the dedicated sacker, his next skill will be Strip Ball)
    - 2 goblins (6 & 8 SPP): 2 Heads (love dodging my way into the end zone on a 2+, its very annoying for the opposing player).

    My other thrower is bound to skill up by the end of next game, he's at 9 SPP by mid-game. He'll get Big Hand to become the ball retriever. I also have my second blitzer at 5 SPP, he'll get a touchdown if possible.

    I plan to leave the 2 remaining goblins as free of SPP as possible to turn them into meat sacks for the LoS. So far it's worked well enough.
     
  15. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    4-0 is a nice result congrats!

    I think I would personally take Extra Arms before Big Hand though, picking up on a 2+ with Sure Hands reroll is going to happen a lot more often than you are going to pick it up in tackle zones. Also Extra Arms and Big Hand will have the same effect if it is in only one tackle zone.

    Big hand Might be better on a Goblin that can dodge to and away with the ball after pick it up. Then you can hand off to the Extra Arms Thrower who gets 2+ on the catch due to Extra Arms.
     
  16. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Member

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    138
    The best team I ever put together was a Skaven team that was keyed by a Gutter Runner with Big Hand who worked in tandem with my Skaven Blitzer who had Strip Ball and Wrestle. I can't remember how many touchdowns resulted from fishing balls out of a scrum, but it got to the point where those two were being constantly targeted in my league and apo use was strictly reserved for those two and my superstar Gutter Runner (AG5, Block, Catch, Nerves of Steel, the Jerry Rice of Blood Bowl players).

    Coach is right, you either need Dodge or Nerves of Steel or your dude is just asking to get clobbered once he does get the ball (and in the case of NoS, he's gonna get clobbered after he pitches it out).
     
  17. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    You've sold me on the Extra Arms, that's what I'll do. Considering my throwers will probably skill up fast (if they stay alive, that is), how should I develop them afterward?

    The Guard thrower will most likely get Block, should the Extra Arm one go for Block as well, or another mutation? Having another Big Hand in the team could be interesting, giving the option of a 2+ pick-up no matter what, then handing off the ball to another player for a run or pass. What do you guys think?
     
  18. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Member

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    I'm a big fan of Nerves of Steel on Skaven Throwers (and Gutter Runners when rolling doubles). If he has the ball and your cage collapses, you'll be able to pitch it out of there easily. Take Safe Throw after that and it becomes even a better option. If a teammate has the ball, he makes a pretty damned good receiver with the Extra Arms and the NoS. As a fringe benefit, he'd be a pretty decent interception threat when that opportunity arises.
     
  19. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Not sure I agree, if you take Two Heads, he can run away instead. If a cage collapses then you should still be able to dodge out the other side (though diving tackle would cause problems). Being able to dodge around easily is also a handy option to have on your call carrier.

    The other benefits you listed are nice though, using him as a receiver and helps when Diving Tackle comes into play. Usually though you should be able to just push the Diving tackle players away.

    But either way yes I'd take Block next on both of them. Not sure I'd have taken Guard on the double, think Dodge might be better for a ball handling player.
     
  20. Snap Wilson

    Snap Wilson Member

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    I keep thinking standard Skaven and not Skaven with general access to mutations. Yeah, Two Heads makes more sense in that case, and since their are no Gutter Runners on Underworld teams (and the whole Animosity thing) the passing game is less prevalent.