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Underworld Starting roster and development discussion

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Hasdrubal, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    I agree Dodge would have been a more sensible choice generally speaking. The league is full of agility teams (2 dark elves, 1 wood elves and 1 high elves team out of 6 teams) so I expect Tackle to become prevalent in the near future but Guard to remain a marginal skill. That's the reason why I went for Guard as opposed to Dodge.
     
  2. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    I played last week-end the second half of the game I had started in February. I eventually managed to score the winning TD on the last turn (I was kicking in H2), but the game was a sad succession of turnover, my goblins being unable to pick up the ball for 3 turns in a row... Hopefully it was caged well, which prevented my dark elves opponent from retrieving it.

    My second thrower got a skill, I rolled a 10 and went for the +MA. This guy now has 14 SPP and could well skill up again next game.
     
  3. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    While the movement is nice on a Skaven Thrower, I think there are going to be far more useful skills you need early on and I think I would have take Block or Extra Arms first. The extra movement is more of a luxury choice later in development in my opinion.

    Congrats on the win though, sounds like you kept the ball well protected despite the failings of your goblins to pick it up, that is fairly hard to do against elves, so good job!
     
  4. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    Thanks for the feedback, I really hesitated between +MV and Extra Arms. Should the thrower score again the next game, he'll be getting his 2nd skill which will likely be Extra Arms.

    My next game is this week-end, I'll be coaching the last participant of the league on how to play the game and his team. He'll probably go for High Elves, so that should be another interesting and fast-paced game.
     
  5. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    Finally got that next game against High Elfes done, another 3-2 victory for my team.

    The team is as follows now:
    - Troll (12 SPP), Tentacles
    - Skaven Blitzer (9 SPP), Guard
    - Skaven Blitzer (6 SPP), Guard
    - Skaven Thrower (17 SPP), +MA, Extra Arms
    - Skaven Thorwer (16 SPP), Guard, Block
    - Skaven Lineman (10 SPP), Wrestle
    - Skaven Lineman (0 SPP)
    - Goblin (0 SPP)
    - Goblin (0 SPP)
    - Goblin (8 SPP), 2 Heads
    - Gobiln (12 SPP), 2 Heads

    My next oponent (in a couple of weeks) is a scary Wood Elves team that has accumulated +9 TD in 2 league games. I'm 2 games ahead on the schedule, and we likely have a very close TV.
     
  6. Xon

    Xon New Member

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    I am thinking of starting a underworlds team next season. I had fun with 2 seasons of Ogres but want to try them. I might give my guys claws and disturbing presence and foul appearance.
     
  7. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    Got that game against WE done, and it's a 3-1 win for the Underworld!

    A lucky interception turned what should have been a 2-turns Elf score into a 7-turns defensive TD. I was receiving on second half, and thanks to my teams steady fan support (Pitch invasion: 5 WE stunned against 1 Rat) scored again in 3 turns. On the next possession the WE coach makes a mistakes and leaves a sacking route to his ball carrier open: I take the ball , cage up and run to the end zone. He maanges a TD on his turn 16.

    My team now is as follows:

    - Troll (14 SPP), Tentacles
    - Skaven Blitzer (9 SPP), Guard
    - Skaven Blitzer (13 SPP), Guard
    - Skaven Thrower (17 SPP), +MA, Extra Arms
    - Skaven Thorwer (17 SPP), Guard, Block
    - Skaven Lineman (10 SPP), Wrestle
    - Skaven Lineman (6 SPP), +ST
    - Goblin (8 SPP), 2 Heads
    - Gobiln (17 SPP), 2 Heads, Big Hand
    - Goblin (0 SPP)
    - Goblin (0 SPP)
    - Goblin (0 SPP)
    - Goblin (0 SPP) - MNG

    The next development path is Mighty blow for the Blitzers, Claws for the Troll. Try to bring the pain on those elves and rack up casualties!

    My team league record is 5-0-0, the second team being 3-1-1. With any luck, I may end up being the league champion by the end of the year!

    Disturbing presence gets better with each member of the team that gets it, and only against passing plays. There are better mutations for you out there:
    - Claws (after Mighty Blow) for the can openers
    - Extra Arms
    - 2 Heads
    - Big Hand
    - Foul Appearance could be good for Goblins on the LoS, as you have 1/6 chance to cancel and waist a block action against them: OK in a bash-heavy league
     
  8. Smiler6310

    Smiler6310 Member

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    Starting Underworld - Hints and tips

    Afternoon all;

    I recently had a one off game with a Underworld roster and I gotta admit I'm hooked. They are a challenge to play properly but I think they have serious potential to cause upset if used and skilled correctly. Am definately going with an Underworld team when my local league starts up in the new year!

    So I've got my starting line-up:

    The Warpstoned Wanderers
    1 Warpstone Troll
    2 Skaven Stormvermin
    2 Skaven Throwers
    2 Skaven Lineman
    4 Underworld Goblins
    4 Rerolls
    30K saved

    With the remaining cash, at least 10K will be saved for the Apo, but is it worth buying 1 or even 2 Fanfactor to help give me an edge in the kickoff table. This team will need all the help they can get especially early on when skills are few and far between!

    Have been toying with Skills as well, what do you think?

    Troll
    Normal: Guard, Claw, Tentacles, Stand Firm
    Double: Block, Pro
    Stat: +ST

    Maybe tentacles should come before Claw? Thoughts?

    Stormvermin (Both):
    Normal: Guard, Mighty Blow, Claw, Tackle
    Double: Dodge
    Stat: +ST, +AG

    Is a double a waste on a Stormvermin as their normal skills are needed much more?

    Thrower (Both):
    Normal: Extra Arms, Block, Two Heads
    Double: Dodge, Sidestep
    Stat: +ST, +AG, +MV

    Not sure about both throwers skilling the same way. Is Hail mary pass worth a look to get around animosity combined with a diving catch Gobbo?

    Linerat 1:
    Normal: Kick, Wrestle, Tackle, Horns
    Double: Mighty Blow
    Stat: +ST

    Linerat 2:
    Normal: Wrestle, Tackle, Horns, Frenzy
    Double: Mighty Blow
    Stat: +ST

    4xLOS Gobbos:
    Normal: Foul Appearance, Sidestep
    Double: Block
    Stat: +AV

    2xCage Breaker Gobbos:
    Normal: Two heads, Horns, Sidestep
    Double: Wrestle, Strip ball

    1xOTT Gobbo:
    Normal: Catch, Two Heads, Sprint, Sure Feet
    Stat: +AG, +MV

    Remaining Gobbos:
    Normal: Two Heads, Sidestep, Diving Tackle/Diving Catch/Sneaky Git
    Double: Dirty Player

    Would appreciate any help or advice on the roster or skill choices that people with more experiance can give as I'd dearly love to win the league with this roster!

    Cheers
    Chris


    Edit: Changed frenzy to tackle on the Stormvermin and DP choice on the remaining Gobbos.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010
  9. Doover

    Doover Member

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    I would think about a Stormvermin with Horns.
    Also a Thrower with Big Hands can be nice when the ball is lose. But maybe it´s better for a Gobbo with Two Heads so you can get away with the ball after picking it up.

    I´m not sure if you realy need 3 player with Frenzy. You don´t have a lot of Guard or high Strengh player so you could get yourself into trouble with 3 frenzy player.

    Your Team is a mix of skaven and goblins and you have no DP,Sneaky Git player?

    I´m sure I just overlooked him.. ;)
     
  10. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    I could see room for tackle on a blitzer too. Your LOS linerat could get taken out first turn with his armor and he'll be getting tied up by some high st players who don't have dodge and you'd want to be protecting your kicker rather than having him in the thick of the action...
     
  11. Smiler6310

    Smiler6310 Member

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    Lol cheers for the replies fellas.

    Barninho - Yeah the frenzy on the Stormvermin should be changed to tackle, will edit the above post. Thought to have the kicker as a sweeper and the other linerat can roam around and try to keep the opponant honest about using the sidelines.

    I like the idea you mentioned Doover;

    Ball Retrieval Gobbo;
    Normal: Two heads, Big Hand, Extra Arms
    Double: Sure Hands

    As for the DP sneaky git, Im sure I can find a few willing volunteers from the remaining Gobbos to send to "Boot Camp!" :D
     
  12. Grumbledook

    Grumbledook Member

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    doubles are handy on stormvermin though they have many normal skills to take that would be great, it depends on how long you envision playing the team for

    if you are playing a long time and think you can carry perhaps a lesser skill then take the double, I went for Jump Up on the first skill on one of mine, though it does seem a weak choice without the other killer skills first

    throwers I would skill up the same way, with extra arms and two heads you can use one as a ball carrier, the other can push forward as a catching thread, that would also avoid animosity...
     
  13. Smiler6310

    Smiler6310 Member

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    Cheers for the reply Grumbledook!

    Had my second preseason game with the 'Wanderers' today, a solid 2-0 victory over a Human team. My friend was cool enough to let me trial some skills and stars on the team whilst he kept his fairly standard league team.

    Lessons Learned;

    1) Cage Breaker Gobbo - Two heads and Horns

    This guy is awesome, the threat of him was really probably more than necessary but it did put fear into my friend. He knew a regular cage wouldn't work and ended up leaving his ballcarrier exposed.

    2) Linerat - Wrestle and Horns

    This guy is your hole maker, leave the Stormvermin to injure things, this guy can open a hole in the opposition defense almost anywhere. Works especially well trying to turn a flank and use a sideline!

    3) Troll - Guard and Tentacles

    I went with the support Troll rather than the killer Troll (with claw) for this match and I gotta admit tentacles may be the way forward. Mighty Blow will mean that he can still hit and injure things but with the general squishyness of the remaining team, the support Troll ties up players and stops them hitting your guys which is a massive bonus.

    4) LOS Gobbo - Foul Appearance

    Hehe, watch your opponant go nuts as his guys fail to block your disgusting Gobbo! Not only a lifesaver but can really throw a wrench in the works of your opponants game plan.

    5) Star Players

    Nobbla is great at removing players and draws alot of attention away from your squishy team. Skitter Stab-stab isnt so good at drawing attention or removing players unless you use him vs an AV7 opponant, but he does provide you with Gutter Runner spead. Its not ideal to score with a star but if you only have 1/2 turns left he can be a match winner! Didnt get time to use Fezglitch (spelling?) the plague monk star but he sounds good for LOS duty!

    Will keep you updated when I get another game under my belt!
     
  14. Creamster

    Creamster Member

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    Hi, Congrats on the underworld success. Its a team Im looking to start for TT as I have only been on cyanide. Really enjoyed using goblins and underworld looks to be a team that is balanced. A team that has to cut and re-buy when they reach level 3 without doubles IMO is missing the point of BB development. With M access gobs actually have a chance of sticking around.

    Anyways main question is why the 4 re-rolls and only start with 11 players? Speaking from experience with skaven and goblins, you are going to suffer Cas's and it increases as more players are off the pitch. With sure-hands and built in dodge I dont know how you expect 1 RR to be the same as an apoth and 1 gob on the bench. From what I see this team doesn't need loads of RR (unless your doing silly stuff like 1 dice blocking).
     
  15. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Well rerolls double in cost, while the rest do not.

    Also with a team that has a lot of ST2 players you may find that you need to do one die blocks. Having rerolls to spare also lets you play in a more "reckless" fashion, doing more dodges, go for its etc than you would do if you didn't have a reroll in hand.

    Nothing wrong with swapping a reroll as you suggested, it is just down to personal preference. However with expensive rerolls that double up to 140k that takes more time to save up for than it would to get an Apothecary and some more Goblins for the bench which you can add in a more gradual fashion.
     
  16. Creamster

    Creamster Member

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    I understand the reasoning of the extra cost increasing and riskier moves, but you have to consider you are playing an AV 7 team and within a few of turns you will be down men. Having an extra men (and bringing back on a key piece) seems a lot more useful IMO. People talking about using journey Gobs are F*cking crazy!
    My background comes from chaos / nurgle so very few skill re-rolls and always seem to feel 3 is enough. With surehands, dodge and block I believe I would be looking to waste the RR's on non needed moves (extra Gfi or 1 dice blocks).

    With the S2 players I feel they should be giving assists to the S3 guys. True you are going to need to throw critical 1 dice blocks but hopefully not more then 3 a half :)

    Generally speaking I have never found an issue with money in the bank for any of the teams and by starting on full positionals there isn't much left to save up for.
     
  17. Smiler6310

    Smiler6310 Member

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    Hey long time no posts, I've been stuck on a work-related course and had no free time for awhile. Last time I had a few games was over the xmas period. Didnt go too well as Dwarves and Orcs steamrolled me but I did get a 3-1 win over an undead team! :cool:

    So with my limited experiances I've had a rethink over skill choices. The upper limit is normally 2 skills on gobbos, 3 (4 if your lucky) skills on the rats, and 2 maybe 3 on the troll.

    Troll
    Normal: Claw, Guard, Tentacles, Stand Firm
    Double: Block, Pro
    Stat: +ST

    Stormvermin (Both):
    Normal: Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling On
    Double: Dodge
    Stat: +ST, +AG

    Thrower (Both):
    Normal: Block, Extra Arms, Two Heads
    Double: Dodge, Sidestep
    Stat: +ST, +AG, +MV

    Linerat 1: Utiity
    Normal: Kick, Block, Tackle, Horns
    Double: Mighty Blow (Claw taken on normal roll after this)
    Stat: +ST

    Linerat 2: Sweeper
    Normal: Wrestle, Horns, Frenzy
    Double: Jugganaught
    Stat: +ST

    Most Gobbos:
    Normal: Two Heads, Sidestep, Diving tackle
    Doubles: Dirty player (sneaky git on normal rolls after this)

    1 Gobbo Cage Breaker:
    Normal: T wo heads, Horns, Big hand
    Double: Wrestle
    Stat: +ST

    Av7 is a big weakness, so do unto others before they do unto you. Removing opposition players I've found is key to winning with this team. The Troll and Stormvermin specalise in taking out the opposition and the gobbos put the boot in as often as possible (a deep bench is needed here!). :D



    Creamster - How are you finding Underworld? I love this roster, it's truly a fun team to play with. Can't say enough good things about it. You wont win them all (or any in my case! :p) but it will bring a smile to your face.

    I'm leaning towards your 3 RR idea an apo and deeper bench may indeed be the way forward, will give it a bash!



    Had an idea awhile back thought I'd throw it out for debate;

    An Underworld Rat Ogre........

    Now I think Underworld do lack punch before they start getting skills. I'm also aware they are designed as a fun and random roster but I feel a Rat Ogre would bring a bit more strength to the table whilst maintaining the randomness and unreliablity. I would drop a thrower to fit him in so the total number of rats stays the same. So my ideal roster would be this;

    0-1 Warpstone Troll - 110,000gps
    0-1 Warptone Rat Ogre - 140,000gps
    0-2 Stormvermin - 90,000gps
    0-2 Linerats - 50,000gps
    0-1 Thrower - 70,000gps
    0-9 Warpstone Goblins - 40,000gps
    RR - 70,000gps

    Good idea/bad idea? Thoughts..............
     
  18. Exavia

    Exavia Member

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    Personally, i think the Stormvermin should be developed slightly differently to each other.

    Kill Stuff Blitzer
    Normal: Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling On, Horns, Frenzy
    Double: Jump Up/Dodge
    Stat: +ST

    This kind of "Kill" blizter, will take out all the hard stuff in opponents teams. Dwarfs, Orcs and Chaos beware! Skaven Blitzers are always going to be doing 1 of 2 things. Either Blitzing something that needs to die or drop the ball or running for the End Zone. Jump Up makes him scary and worrying after Piling On, or Dodge to keep him alive a bit more.

    Cage Jumper
    Normal: Wrestle, Very Long Legs, Strip Ball, Horns
    Double: Leap
    Stat: +AG

    You could use a Linerat to be developed into a Cage Jumper, but to acquire that many skills takes linerats and awful long time, Blizters tend to develop faster. Also the extra armour on a Blitzer means if you fail this leap, means he has a greater chance of not being hurt from the fall.

    The first double id get on either of the Blizters would be Leap. Its very unexpected and adds an element of problem to any opponent when creating a cage. Ive seen even the strongest cages disintegrate against Slann Teams.

    Disturbing Presence and Prehensile Tail should never be underestimated on Goblins. A scary Goblin would be something like this:

    Normal: Side Step, Prehensile Tail, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance
    Double: Block

    He can dodge into a cage or through a line and stand next to ball carriers or loose balls. Exerting those necessary negatives to anything ball related. Very frustrating especially on low Agi teams.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2011
  19. Doover

    Doover Member

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    For the Goblin you could even add Diving Tackle. So lowering the dogde roll with -3... even getting elfs in trouble. Ok you are on the ground... but well if that´s a TO for my opponent then I take it nearly allways.
     
  20. Creamster

    Creamster Member

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    Long legs is useless without leap and leap is too risky without long legs (never count on rolling doubles). Barring rolling +ag on the first couple of skills (horns and strip-ball/tackle should be easy first picks) I cannot see how you can develop this player. If you roll doubles early you will have to pass, unless your feeling lucky that your AV8 players armour will hold all of the floor crashing until you get a next skill (nuffle will smile when you roll double six's :D).

    That being said I have seen a similar build on chaos pact for the DE player and is very viable.