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Lizardman Starting Roster and Kroxigor?

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by RogueThirteen, Nov 17, 2010.

  1. RogueThirteen

    RogueThirteen Member

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    Greetings everyone. I'm new to Blood Bowl and am looking for some advice on starting a Lizardmen team. The league I'm playing in will be 15 Games long with about 6-10 teams, so it will leave a bit of time for development.

    I'm looking for advice on which of the two popular starting options below to go with. I've read through the very helpful articles here about playing Lizardmen, so thanks to all the authors for the great advice.

    6x Saurus
    5x Skink
    3 RRs
    40k banked (apothecary after game 1, then Kroxigor unless other needs arise)

    -or-

    6x Saurus
    1x Kroxigor
    4x Skinks
    2x RRs
    20k banked (apothecary, then 3x cheerleader & 3x assistant coach to try and net extra RRs)


    Is it a rule in LRB6 that purchasing team re-rolls after team creation is doubled in costs? I've seen online discussions that note re-rolls double in cost after creation, but I haven't been able to track down that section in the rulebook. If they do double in costs, the first build might definitively be the way to go.


    I've been playtesting the first build (with no Kroxigor), but I'm exploring the merits of the second roster. Here's the points I've been mulling over:

    (1) Having 6x Str4 and 1x Str5 all with AV9 will be really imposing on the defense. Should be able to out-muscle or at least go toe-to-toe with any bashy squad, even with 4x Skinks. And everyone is fast enough to keep up with Agility teams, more or less. I have trouble imaging how I myself would play offense against so much high Str, so I think it could give opponents headaches as they try to find enough marks or assists to actually be able to throw 2 die blocks in their favor and create holes for the ball to progress. On offense, strengthens the resilience of the cage even more.

    (2) Prehensile Tail seems really useful, as that extra -1 can really tip the scales for a dodging elf or gutter runner, almost doubling the chance that the dodge roll fails (1/6-->1/3). Though, with Bonehead, moving the Krox to where it's most useful will be risky.

    (3) A Str5 can, one-on-one, double die block just about anything on the LOS (especially in the early games), and can free up Str4 Sauri to be more mobile and actually put their MA6 to use. Additionally, a Str5 can solo blitz a Str2 catcher, etc. with a 3 die block. So against Wood Elves and other such teams, could stay mid-field on defense and then MA6 blitz a catcher for 3 dice without needing any assists. Means risking the Bonehead, but could have its uses. Plus, even if you don't down the receiver, Prehensile Tail is ready to go.

    (4) Fewer skinks on defense, which seems to be a very good thing in the early games before the skinks have acquired any skills. Four skinks still seems formidable enough on offense with options to shift it up with multiple hand-off targets. Until they start getting KO'd or injured...

    (5) Increases chances Kroxigor levels up earlier and more often.

    (6) I'd first buy an apothecary (ideally after the first game with any luck to protect the Sauri/Krox) and then would think about buying 3x Cheerleader & 3x Assistant Coach to try and maximize the likelihood of scoring extra re-rolls once or twice a game. Worried this might over-inflate the TV though with things that only sometimes produce results.

    (7) Seems like it would be a really strong starting squad that could hopefully win its first few games and gain some momentum and extra winnings and FAME to compensate for the painfully slow leveling that will follow. Even if the winnings come in really slowly and the leveling lags behind the curve, this squad would still be packin' a punch and could hopefully mitigate the leveling gap.

    The downside, of course, is that you only have 2x re-rolls. But I've found that even with 3x re-rolls I typically will only ever spend them when I'm on the offensive – specifically on Pick Up, Hand-Off, or second or later Dodge rolls. I've been sucking up a lot of bad block rolls with my Saurii instead of spending re-rolls (maybe this is a bad strategy), because I know I can't afford to spend re-rolls on anything but trying to grab or move that slippery ball with skinks. Besides, at AV9 Saurii usually have improved odds of coming out of “Both Down” results in better shape than their opponents (save those with Block, obviously). The turnovers from these bad blocks are unfortunate, but if the ball is well protected then it's not too terrible as long as you've still got turns for a score. And, given that Pick Ups and Hand-Offs are the only rolls I'd feel comfortable spending re-rolls on, ideally you won't need to make more than two of those a half (one to pick up attempt, one to a hand-off). Now, I certainly wouldn't mind having extra re-rolls, but I wonder if an early Kroxigor would be better than that extra re-roll.

    So, I'm wondering if it's possible for a Kroxigor-boosted Lizardmen team to thrive with 2 re-rolls, or if the 3 early re-rolls and a mid-league Kroxigor are the better option. I guess I'm worried that maybe I'm just rationalizing to myself to justify using my beloved Kroxigor conversion.

    Thanks for any help to a BB rookie!
     
  2. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    The page numbered 29 of the current version of the LR downloadable from the GW site. Post-match sequence I guess it is a bit hidden :D.

    5. Each coach must decide if they wish to spend any gold in the
    team treasury to buy new players and coaching staff, and/or let
    go (i.e., fire) any team re-rolls, players, or coaching staff who are
    no longer wanted. However, the team does not get any gold back
    for letting them go! In addition, each coach can choose to spend
    gold from their treasury to increase his team’s re-rolls. Adding a
    re-roll costs double the amount shown on the team list,
    but only
    adds the basic (un-doubled) cost to the total value of the team.

    As for the rest of it, not sure I am qualified to comment :D.
     
  3. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Hi RogueThirteen,

    I assume you have already read TV1000 Lizardman Starting Roster | Blood Bowl Tactics and the comments on there?

    It basically boils down to personal preference and a bit of luck. I prefer starting with more rerolls but other coaches like to load up with all the ST4+ players.

    Do you know your schedule yet? Knowing what other races you are facing the first few games could make the difference.
     
  4. roobyrax

    roobyrax New Member

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    I know coach is big on maxing out the rerolls, and usually I agree, but not in this case. The Krox is a huge part of a lizard team, a much more important piece than any other big guy. There are many reasons-

    1.- If you don't get the Krox, that is one more skink on the field (that should be enought right there)

    2.- Before you get DT on some skinks, prehensile tail will be your best countermeasure against dodges

    3.- ST5, MA6, AV9

    Much more valuable than 1RR+1 Skink, IMO.
     
  5. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    Im going to back Coach on this one. In a short league i would probably go the Krox, but in a longer league (i think you have 16 games, right?) then i would go the reroll and buy the Krox later. You can still do very well with 6 strength 4 players and that extra reroll can be golden. You could also play it risky if you wanted and forgo the apothecary until you buy the Krox. AV9 on your Saurus and Krox mean they wont often be hurt (and even then very rare to get dead or - stats). For your skinks, you can always get loner replacements. As long as you have at least 2 skinks that are not loner you should be fine. Skills on skinks are wasted tv anyway as there is not much good they can get unless you get a double roll.

    But from reading your commentary it seems that you dont use rerolls much, so if this is the case, perhaps you should go the Krox starting roster.
     
  6. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    Take the kroxigor all the way, just remember to keep your mobility with your players. The main reason skinks die is because the saurii and krox is tied up in a brawl and cant protect them.
     
  7. Gio

    Gio Member

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    I played Lizards in a Resurection tourney with the following roster:

    6 Sauri
    6 Skinks
    2 RR
    2 FF
    1 Cheerleader
    1 Coach

    Didn't win the tourney... got to the finals and had heaps of fun, though.
    I know the characteristics of a Resurection tournament differ... but there's 2 things I want to point out.
    First, I was able to manage playing with just 2 RR (I followed Coach's advice and just used them for the important stuff). Letting my opponent do the risky rolls was paramount to this end.
    Secondly, 6 STR 4+ players is already quite a bit of muscle... add a Kroxigor and you can shout "Yippy ka hey".
    Did I miss having a Krox? Not really; in a Resurection tourney winning is everything, thus having a Skink on the bench was more important 'cause, you know, they're the ones who score (and the ones your opponent will try to eliminate ASAP).
    However, in your case, I think a Krox would be a great starting player... since your players will actually skill up. Come to think of it, that's exactly what your final roster will look like, with a few more RR hopefully, but you won't ever need more than 4 Skinks (specially since so many opponents enjoy playing whack-a-skink). Almost forgot, if you get the Krox... don't forget the evil laughter and hissing sounds before each action.
     
  8. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    I would also go for the Kroxi roster because i found it key to form that cage a few rows beyond the center from where your skinks can spring to score on the next turn...

    This roster I think is better for those coaches than can keep it cool faced with the wrong dice and allow it to happen unless it is a critical move that would ensure your TD. This means better preparation and always placing your players planning for the worst.

    More often than one would think, given AV9, a saurus would go KO or worst. And with only 5 sauruses and no Kroxi the task of caging AND opening the way for the cage or screen to advance those few rows becomes a big challenge if your opponents place their players and blitz reasonably well.

    Having the Kroxi allows for more flexibility to push forward, but one needs to keep it cool with bad dice and only block where strictly necessary until you can buy 1 oe 2 more RR.

    By the way, with this roster, the main golas for gold expenditure in my case are to buy 1 RR, Apo, 1 RR, 5th skink, in that order. Although you could also consider 1 RR, 1 RR, Apo, 5th skink. In the first few games you can perfectly well get by with JM skinks if they get MNG or simply die.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  9. RogueThirteen

    RogueThirteen Member

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    Thanks for all the helpful feedback everyone. The articles on this site and the comments in this thread have certainly proven to be food for thought.

    I played another pre-season test game against Wood Elves last night and went the No Krox & 3 Re-Rolls list. I was able to win 2-0, but only because the Wood Elf Catcher dropped his pass, allowing me to pour Sauri/Skinks around the ball so he had no chance of picking it back up, despite his Wardancer's efforts to leap into the fray and make desperate grabs for the ball (or, at least hoping it would bounce to a Saurus who would fumble it out away from my "cage" around the ball).

    In the first three turns of the first half I burned up all three of my re-rolls and was darn thankful I had them. But, in the second half on offense, I only used one re-roll (and could have survived without using it) and scored pretty easily. So, I'm still not sure if I'd prefer the 2RRs or 3RRs build.

    I will note, though, that for the first time last night I fell in love with my Skinks. They're stunty MA8 was invaluable at getting them exactly where they needed to be to keep those dropped balls contested and throw down extra roadblocks, etc. For once, I was actually glad I had 5 on the pitch... though it was against Wood Elves.

    Hopefully I'll get to playtest a few more pre-season games and I'll try the Kroxi build out. But right now, I'm leaning towards the 3RR route.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  10. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

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    I never play Lizz. but isn't 4 skinks a little light to start?

    My strategy against them is to blitz a skink every turn no matter what team I play. 6 ST4 guys is a force to be recon with, but they're quite inept at handling the ball IIRC.
     
  11. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    With only 4 skinks on the field you should be able to protect them, otherwise a rethinking of strategi might be in order. And anyhow 5+ pick up will happen sometimes.
     
  12. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    As i said earlier in this post, i prefer the 3 reroll start. One reason for this that i didnt mention, is that you can often afford to try a hand-off to a Saurus near the opponents end-zone and use a reroll for the catch. 5+ with a reroll is > 50% chance of success. If you only started with 2 rerolls, it is rare that you would have one spare by that stage. That way you can get much needed SPP on your Saurus easier.

    Note that i normally only attempt the handoff if the ball is still fairly safe, even if i fail.

    Those that argue that with the 3 RR build, you miss on SPP on your Krox. Well that is true, but i would say that the Krox is good enough without any extra skills and definately needs them less than a Saurus.
     
  13. RogueThirteen

    RogueThirteen Member

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    After a bit more playtesting, I can say that I've decided to go with the Krox and 2RRs even though I was pretty set on the 3RR build at first.

    The biggest benefit of the build, I think, is that on the defense you have such safer formations. With the krox and 2 Sauruses on the line in the mid zone, that leaves 4 Sauruses. This means you can have two columns of double sauruses in the mid zone, and this makes it fantastically harder for both agility teams and strength teams to make a path (for either their catchers or their cage), since they have to blitz a saurus [after knocking back the first saurus on the line]. Without a Krox, it means that one of these two columns has to have a Skink in the back rank, allowing for any team to easily blitz it out of the way and create a passageway. This indirectly helps protect your skinks, but more importantly it shuts down the offense of agile teams by forcing them to take a lot of dodges if they want to get catchers through your ranks. Against bashy teams, it can make their cage progression roughly a turn slower, which is sometimes all you need.

    To advance against this build on turn one, teams have three options:
    (1) Block Saurus on line, blitz Saurus behind it (hard for agile teams & keeps would-be skink safe)
    (2) Block Krox on line, blitz skink behind it, dodge second skink behind it
    (3) Blitz Saurus in wide-zone who is off the LoS, dodge skink behind it
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  14. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    While I agree that Kroxy is the way to go and the usual defensive setup is strong, please realize is that it is by no means bulletproof. A good agile team only needs to push or knock down one Saurus to be able to punch through with only a dodge required. That is often enough to move 1 or 2 catchers in your back field. Agile races with block skill players at 1000TV in their rosters, i.e, all of them, can and will risk 1D blocks against your barebone sauruses quite often, so be mindfull of that.

    For that reason against agile teams I also typically do not put my Kroxi on the LOS but at the second line in one of the defensive columns you mention, so I have a chance to have it unmarked and closer to those catchers that managed to go through so to mark them with it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010