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Elf Starting roster and scoring strategy

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Ancre, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Ancre

    Ancre Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    Paris
    Hello everyone ! I am a new coach trying to decide what team will I get to play table top blood bowl. I have a bit of experience with a bunch of different teams on FUMBBL, and so far those I like best are chaos dwarfs and high elves. AV7 is really frightening under LRB4 rules, but not so much under LRB5, due to the new niggling injury and the journeymen rules, it seems. So I want to try to play a pro elf team, because they have everything I want on my high elves (and because they look cool) :)

    For quite a long time I had quite some trouble protecting the ball carrier while I rushed my players into the opponent's half. I couldn't build a real cage, all I could do was putting two of my players on each side of the ball carrier and hope that the following blitz won't put him down. It is with the starting skills of the pro elves that an idea came to my mind : instead of hoping the ball carrier won't get down on the opponent blitz, I intend to give him dump-off and have a catcher (with nerves of steel) nearby - that way, bar a very unfortunate succession of ones (as I can reroll both the pass and the catch), I will keep the ball in my hands in order to score in the following turn. I am probably reinventing hot water, but I'd like to know how effective that is, because it looks like it's very good ! :)

    Also, I don't really know what to get in a starting roster. My first idea is : 3 rerolls, 2 throwers (who will get dump-off), 1 catcher, 1 blitzer, 7 linemen, 1 apothecary and 30k left in the piggy bank. Is it any good ? I have everything I need and I can begin to save for another positional right away with that.

    Well, that is it. Thank you very much for all the advice you can give me on beginning an elf team ! Ancre.
     
  2. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    I'm not a fan of using Dump Off for that reason, that player is going to take a lot of hits and get injured, then what are you going to do when you don't have him in matches?

    I'd also start the team with both Blitzers, Block is very useful early on and Side Step is a fantastic skill. One Thrower is fine to start with and I'd probably have to get the Apothecary after the first match. (not got time right now to work out a full starting roster as I'm at work).

    For keeping the ball carrier safe while running players into the other half, just keep your thrower really deep so no one on the opposing team can get to him. If they can't get to him they can't hit him. The other option is to not run as many players into the opposing team's half.

    For more tips specific to your problem, use the play creator site to create some diagrams of how the pitch looks after your first turn when you receive the ball. We can then suggest perhaps better ways to position your players.

    If you haven't tried stuntyleeg.com yet either, it is LRB6 compatible site that works like fumbbl. Welcome to the forum and good luck!
     
  3. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

    Messages:
    96
    I don't like your starting lineup.

    Whatever you choose I think you're starting roster must have the two blitzers, at least two rerolls and no APO. I don't see the point in starting with two throwers either, and I don't like dump-off on throwers with this team.

    Here is what I'd used for medium/long leagues

    Code:
    ROSTER 1:
    2x blitzers:  220
    2x catchers:  200
    7x lineelves: 420
    3x rerolls:   150
    
    10k in bank
    
    I like to start with 3 rerolls. No apo is fine, the blitzers are tough and the linelves are expandable. You just need to protect your two catchers for one or two games.
    I don't feel the need for a thrower early on. A lineelf is perfectly suited for that role, and it will help spread some SPPs on these guys.

    Code:
    ROSTER 2:
    2x blitzers:  220
    3x catchers:  300
    1x thrower:    70
    5x lineelves: 300
    2x rerolls:   100
    
    10k in bank
    
    I never field tested that second roster, I'd use it for medium/short leagues.
    It's main drawback is to have 4 AV7 positional with no apo (3 catchers and a thrower)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  4. Ancre

    Ancre Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    Paris
    But keeping the thrower deep will force you to do a difficult pass (even with elves), and you have to work on making sure your opponent can't intercept you and freeing your receiver. It sounds as much difficult to achieve as my technique is.

    (On the other hand, I can see the use of nerve of steel - I always wondered what use it was until now.)

    (On another side note, if my technique is not as good as it sounds, what is the use of dump-off ? )

    Here is an example I did with play Creator (it wasn't very easy, sorry for the time I took answering ! ).

    [play-creator]4796[/play-creator]

    As you can see, I blitzed an entry (using the blitzer) and I put the ball carrier between two players to limit the amount of dices my opponent will have when he will blitz him. I also tried to put as much players as possible in his way to limit his movements. It doesn't always look exactly like that, but it shows what I try to achieve I hope.

    The only problem with this is that my player can go down with a blitz. Block + dodge limit that but not enough to my taste, so my idea was to have a thrower with dump-off as a ball carrier instead of a catcher, and keep the catcher near so he can catch the ball - that way, stopping my offense is much more difficult.



    Voidseer, if I need the two blitzers but not the apo, then I can drop the apo and exchange a line-elf for a blitzer. The point of having the two throwers is to use dump-off ; if it's actually a bad idea, then I agree with you, they're not really needed.



    Thank you for your help !
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2010
  5. Master Wang

    Master Wang New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Kobe, Japan
    Can't view the play. Says only the creator can as it's a private play.

    The thrower only needs 6 spps to get Accurate. Once he has that, those difficult passes stop being difficult. Sit deep, move six spaces forward, and short pass - that's a lot of space covered.

    Depending on who he is and how he's marked, you don't need to free the receiver before he catches. If he's a catcher, he has Nerves of Steel and if the defender is between him and their own end-zone then there's no interception attempt. Then dodge away, run up to the one you're going to score with and hand off.

    Of course this is all situational, but I'd advise against the 2 throw Dump Off idea as you will lose the ball and they will die.

    (Oh, and I echo Coach - come join stuntyleeg.com)
     
  6. VoidSeer

    VoidSeer Member

    Messages:
    96
    I usually don't play a running game with elves. Their catchers are just too good not to be used and the low armor of the lineelves advises against it.

    So yes, the double dumpoff play is not a good choice. Play with a dark elf team if you like that style.

    With rookie elves it is however, I find it easier to combine a handoff and a pass on the same turn than throwing a long pass. This is why I favor starting with 3 rerolls.
     
  7. Patchwork

    Patchwork New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ireland
    That's the roster I go for. It's got both blitzers, who are excellent players and are one skill away from being a blodging sidesteping pain for your opponents to deal with. You also start with two catchers who are the stars of the Elf roster, Nerve of Steel is absolutely brillent for moving the ball out of tough spots or to marked catchers. They also make great alternative blitzers when they start skilling up.

    In a short or medium league I'd consider using that 10k in the bank to change a lineman into a thrower. I find the Elf team can go through a lot of rerolls (I'd never start with less then three) and the thrower is nice and cheap and comes with pass to reduce how many rerolls you might need or save a team reroll for something else on a key play. I wouldn't go for dump off on the throwers though (not as an early skill choice anyway) I'd prefer to go for skills like accurate to increase the easy pass range. When receiving the ball and I feel it's safe to risk a turnover, I'll use a lineman to pick up and quick pass to the thrower, to help the linemen skill up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
  8. Patchwork

    Patchwork New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ireland
    The catchers can combine for a very fast running game by themselves though. A quick or short pass to a catcher who then hands off to another catcher does cover even more ground though :)
     
  9. Gus Gus

    Gus Gus New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    South, UK
    I use this tactic with my Gutter Runners if I find myself deep in my own half and the ball comes loose - with the right placing and some lucky rolls you could run the ball in from your own end zone!

    It is a great tactic and it's fun to see your opponent's face drop as two players manage to burn up almost the entire length of the pitch with only a couple of dice rolls.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
  10. Patchwork

    Patchwork New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ireland
    Yeah, that is always fun and with elves and gutterrunners might only require a few two plus rolls, so it's always worth having keeping a player in position for that when your on defence. I've had opponents moan as I knocked the ball loose near my endzone, knowing what was coming next.
     
  11. Marlow

    Marlow Member

    Messages:
    60
    This is the route I go for rather than using Dump-off. There are so many more useful skills for the Thrower like Accurate, Dodge, Block and Strong Arm on doubles.

    I would go with VoidSeers second roster but spend the last 10k on the second Thrower. The only downside is getting hurt in the first couple of games. I lost three players in the first game of our new league. :(
     
  12. Ancre

    Ancre Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    Paris
    I fixed the link, I hope. It does not show a real play, just what I managed to artificially recreate - I hope it's a good enough example :)

    Thank you for all your feedback ! It seems they do play a bit like I play my high elves on Fumbbl, only being more fragile and more aggressive than them. I will try to give accurate to a thrower and keep the ball deep instead of what I was doing up till now ! I always wondered what was the use of a thrower before that advice. It looks like it'll give me a litle bit of trouble in the beginning, but it looks like fun :)

    On the other hand ;

    Will that kind of technique works with dark elves ? I like playing elves in fact, and as I am a beginner I have yet to fully realise the differences of plays there are between all the elven races.



    Thank you again for all your help ! I will be looking at stuntyleeg now :)
     
  13. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    You want to keep the ball on the Thrower nice and deep so that he can't get hit.

    Passing the ball up the pitch like that and letting the opposing team have a turn is asking for trouble. They can get a free hit on the ball carrier, which will usually be a two dice block. Then if they don't knock him over they can make it really hard for you to get the ball out. With Pro Elves that might be a little easier as they have Nerves of Steel but it will fail enough times to render it a bad idea.

    Spread the receivers out a bit to make it harder for them to box them in and wait and see what happens after their turn. You also need some guys around the midfield to pass or hand off too, which they in turn will pass or hand off to someone else to score.

    You don't have to do a long pass from the thrower to the players furthest down the pitch.

    Dark Elves really don't throw the ball much at all, they do a caging/screening/running game.
     
  14. Ancre

    Ancre Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
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    So, I tried the "keep the ball deep and pass it" with my FUMBBL wood elves. It didn't work well, because I had a lot of trouble avoiding interceptions, and as a result I failed a 2+ dodge (my elves just love to do that), which lead to 6 extremely difficult turns where the dark elf player eventually managed to score (for a final score of 2 to 1 in my favor, the two TDs on my side were scored while in defense).

    The good side is that I now clearly see the use of nerve of steel and safe throw skills, which I wasn't seeing before. I will try it again and include a thrower in that team just to try again that technique :) I still have trouble seeing how to use dump-off.
     
  15. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    It is hard to see how you are going wrong as it is a really common and effective tactic. If you use play creator, or post screenshots of your game after your first turn and then after theirs, we can pick out points to improve.
     
  16. Ancre

    Ancre Member

    Messages:
    30
    Location:
    Paris
    I think it's mostly because all my av7 teams suffer huge attrition rates, which means I never play with eleven players (lrb 4 ... but I like fumbbl so much). I had something 9 players for this half, and he managed to put three players on the four elves that went into his half. Still, I would have scored if not for a small mistake on choosing the result square of a "push" action.
     
  17. Marlow

    Marlow Member

    Messages:
    60
    I am quite happy to play a drive with six or seven Elves and can still score providing I have a couple of skilled players.

    You want to rush Blitzers and Catchers into the opponents half and keep your Throwers just out of Blitz range in your half of the pitch. Next turn you either make the long pass to Catcher/Blitzer which might be intercepted or pass to a closer player who can then hand off with out having to make dodges. Providing they do not have a player with Catch I am happy to risk the interception attempt rather than trying to dodge/GFI for a better position.

    Safe Throw is a nice addition to the Thrower though it always seems to fail for me. :(
     
  18. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    If he is marking 4 of your players with 3 players each, that is 12 players! So I guess you are bunching your receivers up, you need to spread them out so that his defensive players can't mark more than on of your players at the same time.

    This will cause him to have to use more players to mark yours, or likely leave one guy fairly easy to get free. Also by spreading out there is going to be more space for you to try and dodge through with greater ease compared to multiple tackle zones on a square.

    As he will also need to mark up your midfield players, he will unlikely to be able to pressure your Thrower. If he does choose to run players down to pressure your thrower, that makes it easier for you to get guys open.