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Chaos Pact Starting Roster discussion

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Hasdrubal, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    I won't go over the strengths and weaknesses of the roster, they are been well defined on the website.

    The Renegades
    You start with no positional player, so your renegades will likely fill that role.
    - Dark Elf: the key player on a starting roster thanks to its AG4. S/he likely is going to be your ball handler. Should be the target od the opposing team attacks, so needs to be well protected and supported. The Animosity trait could make transmissions/passes risky, but you should still to to score with other players as well.
    - Goblin: a pest that should not be underestimated since this is the only player that starts with a useful skill. Dodge makes it quite survivable early on as few players have tackle. Probably best used deep in the opponent's half as a decoy/alternate scoring threat to the dark elf?
    - Skaven: very similar to a Marauder, trading 1 point of AV for 1 for of MV. More limited skill access and the Animosity trait won't make it a good team player, but being the fastest element of your team, you could turn it into az good safety (although the dark elf is arguably as good).

    Big guys vs. team re-rolls
    This is the main issue faced by the coach at team creation. Is it worth taking the 3 big guys from the start and be limited to 2 re-rolls? Is it better to pick 2 big guys and start with up to 4 re-rolls?
    Pros for 3 big guys: extra muscle on the team when opposing linemen aren't skilled up yet, more opportunities for MVP election hence more chance to skill up. Ball handling activities should be managed by the dark elf, so have more or less an equivalent chance of failure.
    Pros for 2 big guys and more re-rolls: buying theam re-rolls early on means the team can take (slightly) more risks to score the winning touchdown.

    Marauders: your linemen can become whatever you want them to be after a couple of skills. In the meanwhile, they provide assists to block, and try to score and pass to gain SPP.

    The more I think of it, the more tempted I am to start with:
    - Troll, Ogre and Minotaur
    - Dark Elf and Goblin Renegades
    - 6 Marauders
    - 2 Re-rolls
    - 1 apothecary (in case a big guy and the dark elf dies)

    This roster requires a conservative play to avoid turnovers early on...

    What's your take on a Chaos Pact starting roster?
     
  2. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Not really given Chos Pact much of a thought up till now, though I'm a fan of starting reroll heavy. The maurauders are fantastic value with their skill access. The team has no proper core starting skills. Rerolls double in price after team creation and other teams manage fine with one or no Big Guy.

    So because of all that I would go with only two Big Guys and 3/4 Rerolls (not looked at the numbers for an exact line up yet).
     
  3. Hasdrubal

    Hasdrubal New Member

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    I see your point. The issue is that other teams usually start with ball handling skills (sure hands, pass and/ior catch), which you don't have access to as a Chaos Pact starting coach. The big guys can help punch holes in the opposing line, or encourage the opposing coach to focus on them instead of the ball carrier. You are not obliged to do much with them though, they can tie players as well.

    A rookie AG3 thrower has rougly the same chance to pick up the ball as the dark elf, a rookie catcher has the same chance of dodging, etc. This is why the Dark Elf is the key player on a starting Chaos Pact roster IMHO. The more decoys can be planted on the pitch, the better.
     
  4. BoBliness

    BoBliness Member

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    I've not looked at chaos pact much and I'd like to, but i cant access the information on them from work.
    For some reason the work filter doesnt catch this site (thankfully) but it gets nearly everything else ( i've got one other 40K blog that I can access and a handful of webcomics but its a pretty thorough filter overall)

    anyone able to post a quick rundown of the team options? cost and stats etc.
     
  5. Joemanji

    Joemanji New Member

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    I started with just the Ogre and the Troll. I think the Minotaur is too much of risk early on. The 4+ roll to Move means it will often be left way out of position, especially on defence. Although they keep their TZ on a failed negaskill roll, this isn't much use if the player is 10 squares away from the action.

    My prefered lineup:

    Ogre
    Troll
    Dark Elf
    8 Linemen
    4 rerolls
    = 1,000K.

    You will need the rerolls. With ST3, no Block, AG3 and no skills you will fail rolls on a regular basis. Having four means you also have the option to risk one on a Loner roll in the right situation. Marauders also skill up very slowly, so you'll need the rerolls throughout the teams development.
     
  6. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

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    94
    I've never played as pact. As I'm just starting out as a new coach with Norse.

    However I've played two also new pact teams already. One had three big guys, and I believe only two RRs. The other had two big guys, and more fancy players (skave, Elf, and Gobbo). I think they had three RRs.

    The three RR player faired better. But both teams eventually were completely dominated in the end.

    The team is initially wildly unreliable with no block, no re-roll skills(except the gobbo) and negaskills on the key fighters.

    My impression is that you should be willing to write off your first couple league games as probably losses.

    So focus on the long game. This, IMHO, means re-rolls due to their cost doubling, an APO, and avoid the fragile skaven and gobbo.

    This essentially means exactly the lineup Joemanji posted or one where you trade a RR for an APO and some banked cash.

    I'd suggest the RR if you can start off against some nancy elves, and the Apo if you're going up against something like a Norse snow troll that has a solid chance of carving up your big guys.
     
  7. altf4

    altf4 New Member

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    Bring the All Stars back home !

    This roster is quite unique. The versatility of the Marauders when they get SPP and may choose within every skill list (except Agility) upon normal rolls extends the diversity of team development beyond the usual.

    But the lack of positional players and default skills makes the team unreliable and hard to play during the first matchs. Renegades and Big Guys (even if three are a little too many, I think) are therefore the key to help Marauders to win and get experienced.

    Goblin Renegade : the Dodge skill makes him the natural "catcher" of the team. May be thrown by the Troll or Ogre too for fast TD attempts.

    Dark Elf Renegade : AG4 makes him the best starting "thrower" or "runner" of the team, crossing fingers for Animosity rolls (as he's the only DE, he'll keep the ball for him :D).

    Skaven Renegade : the least useful ... just a Maraudeur with more MA and less AV, suffering from Animosity without Normal access to S and P skills.

    Big Guys : a full S5 LoS is appealing but, due to their unreliability, I would just pick two of them.

    Marauders : their easy access to many skills and combinations may allow the coach to specialize them according to his own style of play. Great throwers into Von Hawkfire's lineage, Blitzers close to Human ones, ... Agility skills are rare but may be useful not to leave the Gob and DE alone in that domain (a two-headed blodger, for instance). Also note that each Maraudeur may choose "Leader" on Normal roll, providing the team with a free TRR ;)

    My starting roster would be :

    - Goblin Renegade (40K)
    - Dark Elf Renegade (70K)
    - 2 Big Guys (let's say Troll and Minotaur) (260K)
    - 7 Maraudeurs (350K)
    - 4 TRR (280K)
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  8. Arkzein

    Arkzein New Member

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    Bit like Chaos Early on, you've no skills so starting with two RRs (added in with unreliable Big Guys, though you shouldn't be using RRs on them) and anyone will struggle. With Chaos, similar in lack of ball and bashing skills, (and I'm a very conservative player by nature) I sometimes have a RR left at the end of a half with three, or burn it on a non-critical turnover but more often than not it's needed to prevent a disaster. To that end I'd definitely go with two BGs and more RRs.

    Where I differ to some of the above is that I'd certainly go with the Mino (Toss up between the Ogre and the Troll, tend to like the Troll's regenerate early on). The Mino is at his most useful early on where having ST5, frenzy, horns and MB puts him well above the standard mooks before teams have the necessities to deal with him. He provides a massive hitting threat on defense (should be getting 6D on S3 pieces with good positioning) for both cage breaking and as a safety, even moreso than on a Chaos side where you have plenty of S4 blitz options as well, not to mention the surf potential. Yes it's a risk with WA (The best Nega trait IMO, keeping your line intact if you use him there) but worth it to use his blitzing potential. Love the thing in Tournies/low TV. However I do know all too well the danger of him getting "stranded" on those 4+ rolls, and unlike a Chaos side there really isn't much hitting backup to make up for this, depends on how well you can utilise him.

    One big issue is that the Mino knocks you down from 4 to 3 RRs assuming you don't go with an 11 man roster including a Gobbo. 3 RRs is manageable though and a cheap Leader on a marauder should get 4 ASAP

    I'd go:

    Mino
    Troll
    Dark Elf
    9 Marauders
    3 RRs

    Apo-Ogre-Gobbo-RR (or RR-Gobbo) progression, assuming no replacements (unlikely).


    All theory as I've only played against them once and my Pact team is a long way off, but this has been my thinking on them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2009
  9. giorss

    giorss New Member

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    Location:
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    I quote Joemanji, I like that roster, the only thing I think about is just only if take gobbo instead of a line (to create some difficult to opponent) but I like without goblin
    the greenskin becomes the first target and he dies, so you have to buy another player

    the skaven line is really unuseful, av 7 and no good skill progression makes him less powerful than a marauder (than can be quite everything, thrower, catcher, basher...)
     
  10. Meister P

    Meister P New Member

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    I pretty much agree with the above. Personally I'd exchange a marauder for the skaven, but that's only a question of taste. Also you could consider choosing the troll and the ogre as BGs. The minotaur might be better at bashing but he can't throw no gobbo! ;)
    I played CP last season and they were absolutely superb! In fact I found them to be a bit overpowered. You might start up with a lack of skills but the marauders are worth their weight in gold due to their free skill development PLUS MUTATION! The first marauder to skill up takes leader, of course, which gives a 5 RR team with two big guys and a 4 AG ball handler in no time. Win a little gold, buy an apothecary, a marauder and then the mino/ogre. In the meantime many of your marauders will have gotten block and before you know it you've got 3 BGs on the line of scrimage! :eek: Nasty, nasty, nasty!!..
     
  11. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for bringing back such an old thread but the recent discussion of the Slann had me digging out the new teams PDF and I found myself distracted by the Chaos Pact.

    The sheer variability of a starting roster for this team makes for an interesting thought exercise, and I notice the following roster hasn't been given an airing:

    8x Marauders
    1x Dark Elf Renegade
    1x Chaos Ogre
    1x Chaos Minotaur
    30k towards apothecary

    Perhaps it's not as good economically as the team that lets you start with 4 rerolls and a Troll instead, but the Mino is more reliable, has better starting skills and it's not as if you couldn't spare a skill on a Marauder somewhere to pick up Leader.

    The apothecary comes quicker to protect your three valuable players, and I guess I'd follow that with a Goblin for a cheap reserve/Double-Headed Stunty Dodging nightmare and the Troll to follow after that.
     
  12. Stryke

    Stryke Member

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    I like the skaven my self, with access to mutations and the extra speed he makes a fine Blitzer after only two skills (horns/wrestle)
     
  13. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

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    I dont rate the choas pact team at all. Your "positionals" are other peoples throw away linemen. In fact they are worse than other peoples linemen, at least on a darkelf team the lineman will hand off the ball to each other.

    I think the darkelf is a must at agi 4. In a on on going league I'd ditch the mino for a reroll and save for him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  14. Mikeal

    Mikeal New Member

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    Resurrecting an ancient thread to remind Coach to do a Chaos Pact starting rosters article!

    I'm thinking my next team is definitely going to be Chaos Pact, but given that few other teams have such a range of options, I'm still wrestling with what kind of team to start with. Hypothetically, I'd be playing in a twenty-game regular season. I'm strongly tempted to start with only one big guy and four or five re-rolls, and came up with two alternatives:

    Minotaur
    Goblin Renegade
    Skaven Renegade
    Dark Elf Renegade
    7 Marauders
    4 re-rolls
    Apothecary

    or:

    Ogre
    Goblin Renegade
    Skaven Renegade
    Dark Elf Renegade
    7 Marauders
    5 re-rolls

    I lack the experience with big guys (outside of playing against Cyanide's execrable A"I") and one-turn touchdowns to be able to say if the Ogre's Throw team-mate skill is worth having on a starting roster; personally I consider the Minotaur the best of the three available big guys. It's also tough to judge whether five re-rolls, plus a probable sixth from a Leader skill, is overkill. With the team's complete lack of skills...

    The bigger question (pun intended), of course, is: does the team need two big guys from the beginning? I'm hugely tempted to go without them, run the first roster and start saving for the Ogre, but like I said, I don't have the experience with these kinds of teams to really judge which trade-offs make sense.

    What do you guys think?
     
  15. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Well, if your end goal is like this: FUMBBL :: [PMV] Kill Your Heroes then you have too many pointless positionals.

    So:
    9 Marauders = 450 k
    Dark Elf = 70 k, 520.
    Minotaur = 150 k, 670
    4 RR = 280 k, 920

    Then probably get an apothecary and save the rest of the money.
    Or exchange 2 marauders for a goblin and an ogre, to get some extra MB and that throw-teammate option.

    Unless you are silly, slann or vampire you should never need 5 RR on the roster. (Imo)
     
  16. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    Minotaur is the worst of the big guys. Sure, he's okay if you're going to be blitzing with him all the time, but that rarely wins you games. The Marauders become much more reliable blitzers in short order.

    So, Ogre for not having to care about Really Stupid, or Troll if you're fine with that in exchange for lower price and Regen. Mino would be my last pick, he just doesn't bring anything NEW to the team.

    I really don't see the point in Pact without two big guys - it' their specialty, in exchange for not getting ST4 players. If you're not making use of it, you might as well play Chaos and start with ST4 and Horns all over.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  17. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    Me, if I played Chaos Pact, I'd play them for giggles anyway, so I'd be rolling with all 3 big guys, 7 Marauders, 1 Goblin, 3 rerolls. It'd be like a really stupid Khemri. :p
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  18. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    You could name the big guys after the Marx brothers. :)
     
  19. Tergara

    Tergara Active Member

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    Or the stooges!
     
  20. otzenpunk

    otzenpunk New Member

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    You forgot one big advantage: Minotaurs don't lose their tackle zone when failing their neg trait roll. It's not just about blitzing.