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Elf Stats VS Skills

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by narg, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. narg

    narg Member

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    When do you decide to call it a day and to stop giving stat increases to your players?

    Case in point: a pro-elf thrower with +AG and dodge rolls 6+4. I was thinking about giving him block for survivability, but I'm a bit conflicted as +MA could be good. I've also been advised to take safe throw, sure hands or dump off instead.

    I also used to have a +ST, guard lineman but he repeatedly got injured and then died so now in hindsight I'm wondering whether it would have been better to just take block and dodge, or at least block instead of guard - less impressive but increases lifespan.
     
  2. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    When those increases no longer help your player perform his job (+Agi to a Treeman/Dwarf Blocker for example).

    Think of it this way, +Mv helps his survivability too, if they can't get into blocking range they can't hit you. +Mv also helps stop interceptions, helps you get to the ball quicker, and makes it easier to get shorter, more accurate passes.

    +St helps his lifespan too, perhaps even more then Block would have. It's simply harder to hit a guy with +St (as long as you don't let him get dog piled) and a guy with +Str gets more two dice blocks then a guy without it. Frankly the only thing that makes +St bad is it paints a target on the player with other players because of how good +St is...
     
  3. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    With the thrower I'd go for a skill, because the movement means less to him than your catchers, for example. He's not the player you want running down opposing receivers on defence and on offense he should be hanging back until he tosses the ball forward to the catchers, not making a running play. On that basis in my opinion other options are better - both sure hands and safe throw help him do his job better than +1MA in my view.

    As for the +1 Str I've had the same quandry and mine got it has his first skill and died 2 games later because KOs meant I had to put him on the line of scrimmage in the second half and he got killed when block or dodge might have helped him live longer.

    Of course if I'd been able to keep him further back it might have been different, but even then it leaves you with what, for elves, is a relatively slow and underskilled blitzer.

    I know the majority will swear +1 Str should always been taken, but without skills its hard to protect that value on such a fragile team and I believe its better to play to their strengths than compensate their weaknesses.

    Edit: Heh, posting at same time as Murkglow and we are opposite ends of the spectrum, so take your pick I guess. Murkglow thought of some things I didn't but I'd agree with him that if protected and used right they're valuable, but its more a matter of timing - as a first skill they're vulnerable in my view.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  4. narg

    narg Member

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    You guys aren't helping me here, it looks like everybody including Blood Bowl veterans would take something different...
    I guess that the issue with this player is that contrary to norse linemen for example, he just has too many good options...
     
  5. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    For a player without the basic survival skills (block/wrestle, dodge), I will rarely ever take +movement or +armor. I typically will only take those as a third skill unless it is on a highly starting skilled positional.

    Especially on a thrower, I would take a survival skill first. That said, taking +move would not be bad - it is just not what I would do.

    That said, I will pretty much always take +STR on any player (exceptions: Snotlings, big guys without block) every time it comes up. Agility depends - but I think 5 agility is about the maximum that is frequently useful.

    The main point I would say is that I prefer to get the basic skills and *then* get the stat increases. I will usually tolerate taking one out of order - but never +armor/move as the first skill when they need something like block.
     
  6. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    As far as Stat increases in general go early on you have to make a choice. It really comes down to personal preference, especially if you roll a double. Acid rule with every skill pick is what do you need to make your team function effectively.

    In this scenario you have a chance to have an awesome player, but he is going to get targeted and you have a fair few games where you need to protect him, and you are coaching a team where it's easy to lose a few players and this would make it harder to do.

    I would say to get block unless you are very confident in your ability to do this. MV will help in terms of making some passes easier to pull off, but you can cover most of the pitch with three players a hand-off and a short pass. I don't see it being as consistently useful as Block, which doesn't just protect him but makes him more of an asset should you lose the ball and have to do some blocking.

    With a team I would never decide to call it a day categorically. Like Murk says sometimes a stat isn't that useful, for example AG on a player who will still have fairly crap AG.

    You are right in that early on there are skills you need on a lot of teams to make them function effectively, and sometimes a stat increase isn't good value.

    I often skip stat increases early, unless it's something unbelievably good. Often stat increases mark a player out for targeting. I know some elf coaches who will skip AG in favor of protection skills early, reasoning that they already have good AG and they would rather have Dodge spammed across the team than a corpse who could have been awesome. I'm like Gallows in that I prefer my stat increases and doubles to come second skill onwards.

    The truth is that the right answer is it depends. Netsmurf for example will never turn down a stat increase he wants, and he gets away with it typically because he's an awesome player. So now in the Crunch Cup we have a ST4 AG4 Ghoul. If I'd done that he would be dead by now, but I am very jealous.

    Stat increases make a good team a great team, but early in development they can represent bad value and retard the development of the team. In the Netsmurf example that Ghoul still could fail to pick up the ball, although the AG helps. and if a Tackler hits him he has a decent chance of being wrecked. But if he gets away with it he has a piece which will be horrible for people to deal with.
     
  7. Isryion

    Isryion Member

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    Increasing your player's lifespan is great, but it also needs to help you win games.

    Well, I almost never turn down +STR or +AGI on my elf team. MV? Almost never take it on my elves. I play with a lot of BB vets, and very few, if any, turn down +STR or AGI, except in cases where it really doesn't add anything (+AGI on a saurus, for example). I used to be concerned that it could stunt team development, and in some cases it does in the short term, but I think that in the end the team ends up better for it.

    Nothing else increases your survivability like strength. While my +STR blitzer does get picked on, it takes a ton of effort to get him down, and overall, the attention he gets means that other guys, who go down easier, aren't getting hit. He's also more easily putting opponents on their backs. This means that long term, he's improving my net block ratio. Nothing can help a team's overall survivability more than that. It's not just about him, but the team as a whole benefits from it as well.

    +AGI

    +MV just isn't worth it, in general. While I saw someone mention that extra move can prevent you from getting hit, I think there are other skills that will help quite a bit more and be more useful long term. Dodge gets you out of TZs for example, and lessens the chance that you'll go down. If it's a passer, Safe Throw is going to give you more chance of avoiding an int.

    As to getting skillups early or later, there are a couple advantages to getting them early. First you can decide how you're going to develop that player. Second, the stat seems to be a big advantage early, before you opponents have time to develop.
     
  8. Isryion

    Isryion Member

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    On your thrower, what role is he playing? If he is essentially a defensive thrower, block or sure hands (for picking up the ball in traffic) would be good. Otherwise, Safe Throw would make it almost impossible to stop this guy on offense.
     
  9. narg

    narg Member

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    Thanks for your answers!

    Isryion, the plan was to use him as an offensive thrower but I find that I regularly use him in defense as well, the AG5 and dodge allow him to blitz in a cage and I have no other player with AG5 or Leap.
     
  10. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    I typically will not give two stats increases to a player unless there are obvious synergies or the player is already blodged/wrodged. I.e. A +ST and +AG WD should be ok me thinks :D

    But otherwise typically no. In this particular case after +AG in an elf I´d go Leap before Dodge, but that is just personal preference. I prefer to get the most out of +AG right away and an AG5 leaper allows you to do a lot of things both in attack and defense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2011
  11. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

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    I would always take Str or Agi on an elf but a lot of your choice is decided by the number of games you are playing.

    In a perpetual league stat increses are great as you are looking at long term developement. In a short league there may be skills the team need more.

    +MV is great for a thrower. It will often be as good as accurate and/or safe throw allowing you to get a shorter pass and to pass around opposing players. It also lets you leave him back on his own for kickoff as he can cover the whole of the back field to collect the ball.

    +Str is good on any one, it greatly increases survivability and he will eat up more resources if your opponent wants to take him down. My woodelves have a str4 line elf and he is a real beast. He now has block and MB (I know guard was the more sensible choice) and he is a key player for my team. He punches the gap that lets my receivers run into the backfield without dodging.

    I also have 2 line elves and a catcher with +1agi so I have some great receivers who catch the ball, even in traffic. One of those lineleves just got guard so he will probably be dead soon. Guard is the kiss of death for an elf... along with kick, my kickers always die or get career ending injuries. Come to think of it my other agi 5 linelf has kick. At least the catcher is safe.

    Anyone can die at any moment on an elf squad, even if you go for the vanilla blodge option. Just enjoy your stars while you have them.
     
  12. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    On your standard linelf I would probably pass up +AG as a first skill. It really doesn’t make him that much better and just screams out to your opponent “kill me”. AG 4 is good enough on an elf and dodge will take you so much further than +AG. Later in skill development it could be different, but certainly early on I am a big fan of dodge/block/wrestle (stay alive) skills. I would probably also pass up Guard as a first skill on a Lineman, but would definitely take it if he has a defensive skill already.

    Regarding thrower builds, what are peoples standard second skill choice? I have a dodge thrower and in my last CCIV game he fluffed a short pass that almost cost me a TD. So I am very much leaning towards accurate next. Or is safe throw a better choice?
     
  13. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    I love accurate, but then I also love to play heroball and just chuck a bomb down to the reciever in endzone - not be course its the smart move, just be course it looks so cool when that oval flies perfect and suddenly you are up 1 or in a heap of mess:D
     
  14. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm rapidly coming around to Safe Throw as an early choice on the thrower, I thought it wouldn't be so important, but when you're going to try those longer passes, the fumble really hurts you if your thrower doesn't have a lot of people around him to keep the ball safe if it drops.

    Last night I conceded a touchdown to a plucky skink rushing in on a fumbled pass and getting away with the ball.

    And regarding coachman's point about death - my blodge catcher did exactly that last night. A failed 2+ dodge (and re-roll) left him tripping to his death.

    Unfortunately I'd used my apothecary to stave off death for my thrower earlier, which I now know was a big mistake - the thrower is far easier to replace and his skills less vital than those of a catcher - won't do that again!

    I still won 3-2 even with 1 death and 3 injuries - mostly caused by a rampaging kroxigor.

    Really need dodge on my linemen as soon as possible, but at least both my blitzers have dodge now.
     
  15. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    As has been mentioned, +1MV on an offensive thrower is good for reducing range, and getting to the ball. With AG already I'd consider not bothering though, especially if you've already got accurate. My pro elf thrower is AG5 accurate, and it's a rare pass thats not 2+ with a re-roll.

    Consider dodge for defense, and so you can dodge in to recover loose balls. Same with Safe throw as a defensive thrower skill to prevent fumbling when surrounded by tackle zones, and preventing intercepts.

    It should also be noted that Stat increases raises your team value considerably. My Pro elf team is at least 100 TV above the rest of my league, 500 TV on some teams, and has only 11 players still. Though a lot of this is due to double skills.
     
  16. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    Oh and STR 4 + Guard is awsome, but sooner or later you need to give that guy Block. which is what I did when I rolled another double for a STR4 Guard Catcher.
     
  17. Snotty

    Snotty Member

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    I think MV+ is great, asides from low mv players like tree men. It really helps in defence in getting to runaway ball cathers and marking players . It has helped by blitzers to no end, smashing up wayward catchers.

    for st+ im slightly more apprehensive. Its great but in my experience if a cather or thrower get a mv+ they inadvertently become blockers, this mostly on teams with all st 3, and naturally waste their ag skills. Stick st on linemen or blitzers, leave the passing to the passers.
     
  18. ickey

    ickey Member

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    Actually, +MA on a treeman is a God-send!

    It means he no longer needs to roll to stand up after getting knocked down.

    I also love +MA on Goblin fanatics; gives you an extra chance to hurt someone each turn!

    Also, I would always take +ST on a thrower, as it makes him much harder to knock down.