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Skaven Team building with a Rat Ogre

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Murkglow, Jul 4, 2010.

  1. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    Rat Ogre Building

    Hi everyone. I really enjoy the articles on this site but I've noticed there isn't one for the Rat Ogre, who I love, so I felt the need to ask a few questions about them and get some opinions regarding their leveling up. Here is what I've been think of:

    Normal Skills: Break Tackle, Guard, Stand Firm
    Double Skills: Block, Tentacles
    Stat Increases: +Str, +Mv/+Av

    I based this off the Minotaur really plus my feelings regarding Skaven play.

    For Normal skills Break Tackle seems fairly important for getting him where he needs to be and with Skaven's general mobility and lack of hard hitters being able to move your Ogre around seems like a pretty desirable thing. After that having a bit more Guard is nice (especially with wild animal and to keep your fodder linemen from getting smashed quite as hard) and Stand Firm to round it out.

    For Doubles, Block just seems too important with a Frenzy player to pick anything else. I'm a bit less sure regarding Tentacles though. They seem awesome but it does require a second double and kind of overlaps with their starting ability (Prehensile Tail). On a side note, do these two abilities stack? I would think not which makes this choice semi-wasteful... Thoughts?

    Finally stats I think are pretty self explanatory though I don't know if +Mv or +Av is really worth it here over a skill and if they are would you say one is better then the other? Av 8 isn't super high while Mv 6 is decent but 7 is always better...

    Anyway, looking forward to your thoughts!
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  2. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    I would start with at least two RR. First normal skill on the ogre would be Juggernaut - makes it so much easier to use it as a blitzer. Tentackles and P-tail do stack, first roll for tentackles, then the dodge -1, then if you have it and want to use it, diving tackle. All skills stack unless otherwise stated.

    Normaly I start skaven with; ogre, two blitzers and only two runners, 3 RR and 30k in the bank to buy the apo after game one. Then I get the runners and finaly a thrower.

    I try to recieve with blitzers and make one completion with each, then do the same with linerats. The Runners will get they share of SPP easy so I don´t wory to much about them. I use a runner to recieve the quick passes as AG4 is dandy.

    Brio
     
  3. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

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    I'd be tempted to lose the ogre to start. I prefer gutterrunners and you will be needing more rerolls as most of your rats have no guard and are agi 3.

    Juggernaught/break tackle are the obvious picks for a rat ogre. On a double block is a must but I'd take pro over tentacles or even claw. Pro will be useful on his wild animal rolls, if he's not used it by the time he's hit anyone you can even try your luck on a push result and it may even save you from double skulls. Just remember that the rat ogre is only AV8 so look after him, if he goes down you can expect him to get stamped.

    Finally with storm vermin I'd take guard first every time. Any double I'd take claw over horns to put some fear into the bashy teams. At least one of them will need tackle too.
     
  4. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    Fair enough, I have noticed the pinch in my practice games with only one so I'll make the effort to get a second at least starting off.

    Really? I honestly never really considered Juggernaut. It doesn't allow him to dodge out of tackle zones (which is my big worry with him as I don't want to be forced to block a goblin/lineman each turn because my opponent always has one on me) and I'm more interested in putting him in key places to hold or at least attempt to hold key enemy players rather then using him strictly as a blitzing machine. Do you really think Juggernaut is the best choice in that type of build?

    That's good to know. I have no practical experience with Tentacles and it kinda read to me like the Tentacle roll replaced the dodge roll. Now that I know they both work it's much more interesting to me.

    My only worry is that two Runners won't be able to strip the ball in the backfield as well as my usually four do. I guess I'll just need to bite the bullet and drop something for the Rerolls (as the doubleing price does make it a noticeable issue early on)...

    Oh I've noticed how easy it is to get SPP on Runners. They can gain points at the drop of a hat or so it seems. I will make an effort to make goals with my other players if I can.

    I'm actually really used to playing with low rerolls so I really don't feel the massive "need" to have them all that much to be honest. Still I will try and have at least 2 if not 3 on my next team. The Ogre however is not negotiable. He's really quite hard to level as he needs kills or MVP for points and putting him off multiple games just hurts him too much for my liking. Plus he's my second favorite big guy (on cyanide's game anyway) and one of the reasons I play skaven.

    With all this talk about Juggernaut I'm beginning to wonder if no one builds a "roadblock" Rat Ogre and instead all build "Blitzers"... Is there any reason for this? Is the "sticky" big guy not as useful on a skaven team as I seem to think it would be?

    I already am taking Guard first. As for Claw, true it does allow him to more likely injure players but it doesn't help him knock them down in the first place and he is only Str 3 with very little guard on the team otherwise. Horns allow him some degree of independence in his actions without needing a full on assist to get a good roll. Still it is true I don't have any real "killy" guys besides the Ogre and he does have block as a starting skill making a 1 dice block not quite as bad.

    Hmmm...
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  5. Zweistein

    Zweistein Member

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    TV1000 Skaven Starting Roster

    For most part all decent Skaventeams are listed there.

    especially for the rerolls ... 1 is not realy playable. 2 not enough. Skaven need at least 3 rerolls. better 4. literaly no player is reliable or with other words have to do things he is not well prepared for.
    The lineman are without any skill, so blocking with them is risky ... but you have to. because dodging is not an option for every lineman and if the opponent is blocking, your rats are going to die.
    the blitzers are just 2 players. you will need them as guard to punsh the hole you need. you will need there block, you will need there AV. but because there are only 2 of them the other team will allways be on the advantage in the bashinggame.
    the throwers. i'm a fan of 2 of them. they are lineman with some skills. they can jump in if you need a hand. and they can indicate a passinggame ... what you mgiht not play at all. but the opponent needs to be ready for it! they can pick up the ball in the first turn and so u have 3 GR free to run for the TD not for the ball.
    Gutterrunner. they are on the pitch for everything. assist, blitz, dummytarget, stand-ready-scorer, ballretriever ... . and they are fragile. so you're allways short on them too.

    What you need least is a ratogre.
    he is great for sure. i love mine! but he is not a player for startformation in my opinion.
    it is basicly the skaven cagebreaker. a usefull assist. a target to bind oponent players. a threat of crowdpush-blitzes.
    but he is too pricey. with all the reservplayers and possible losses you definitely will need, you cant aford it. not in the first 10 games.
     
  6. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    True the Rat Ogre might be my least needed team member (well I don't know if I agree if just looking at effect but viewing it from a cost vs benefit stance it's probably true) but frankly I'm not interested in playing without him. I mean without him I might as well just play one of the elf teams. I'd be basicly the same but better able to dodge and handle the ball (heck if I went DE I'd probably be better at bashing too). So really like I said the Ogre is one of the reasons I'm even playing Skaven... *Shrug*

    Also, yes I've read the recommended starting roster article. When it comes to Rerolls however I can't say I agree with 3 being the minimum. If you insist on throwing every block you can every turn perhaps but not if you stick to marking and tackle zones as your defenses. I just spent last night playing with 3 rerolls and I found I had an excess but lacked options on the pitch. When my GR got killed (stupid Apoth roll not helping) I was down to just one... Anyway I don't think the starting line up discussion is really what I'm interested in (there doesn't seem to be much to discuss except rerolls) so I'll remove that part of the opening post.

    I'm really much more interested in people's Rat Ogre Builds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2010
  7. RedDevilCG

    RedDevilCG Member

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    Break Tackle is decent on the rat ogre, but I would take Juggernaut first if I didn't get block. You see, there are really only 2 things you can do with the Rat Ogre, and that's block or blitz. If you want to just move him, you need to make a 4+ wild animal roll, so he's very unreliable for that. You can declare your blitz action on the Rat Ogre, and just move him without blocking, but that seams like a waste for a blitz.

    He needs 3 cas, or 1 cas and a MVP to get his second skill. If his hits are more reliable, then his second skill should come faster. This is where Juggernaut really helps out in its ability to treat 'both down' results as a 'push' when you blitz.

    So I'd probably go:
    1: juggernaut
    2: break tackle
    etc: stand firm, guard....

    Doubles would be block and claw, in that order. Though for fun I did block and dodge once ;)
     
  8. Murkglow

    Murkglow Member

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    True, I expect to blitz with him when I move him, I just am somewhat stuck on the idea of blitzing a target I want to hit (via Break Tackle) and not just the target I'm forced to hit (and then maybe frenzying a couple squares farther away from the actual important fighting because of it).

    Still Juggernaut does offer a partial band aid until you get Block so it does have that going for it. Hmmm...
     
  9. Zweistein

    Zweistein Member

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    So skilling the ratogre

    1st skill: Guard (Block)
    2nd skill: probably Juggernaut
    3rd skill: Break Takle

    on doubles:
    1st: Block (obviously)
    2nd: ist kind of a question. some like Pro for the loner problem, some like Claw for the fear in the eye of your opponent. i'm not sure here. depends on the rest of the skills, your playstile, the league aso.

    if you can get + 1 ST, block is my first choise.
    if you get +MA/AV i'd take AV, because my ogre is often alone up to 2 to 3 opponents. so he get hits and i have to protect my money.
    + AGI skip for a real skill.


    some races prefare to kick the big guy if its not getting block with the 3rd skill. but you're playing Skaven ... and thats not an likly option. so spoil your little pe(s)t!



    one point to your elfanalogy ... your sooo wrong. Skaven are not like elfs. ... at all!
    Skavenplay bases dramatically on high risk - high revard. and thats not the startsituation, but its getting worse with the games played. so have a reroll at hand!
    to the marking players point. if you directly mark them, they will block you. if they block you, you will suffer losses. so screening is the tactic.
     
  10. Ian

    Ian Member

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    I suspect a lot of people go for the blitzer/killer rat ogre because provided you can get 'em moving they have decent mobility. A Beast of Nurgle, for example, lends itself much better to being a roadblock because it's not ever likely to be chasing anybody down. A rat ogre has the reasonable MA and frenzy which is a wasted skill if you're planning to have him sat their tying people down and soaking up punches.

    As for skills, juggernaut is a pretty good one for when you want to crowdsurf somebody like a dwarf (though obviously less good for your chances of getting SPP via hurting people) which frees up your options on mutations if you get a double.
     
  11. Netsmurf

    Netsmurf Well-Known Member

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    On a normal build my ratogre is like this:

    Juggernaut first, (helps standing on your feet and get that second block were you kill the opponent and it makes it easier to crowd push)

    Guard second, (that way your linerats can block opponents away from your ratogre and it is free to blitz, or you blitz to a position were your linerats benefit)

    Stand firm third, (dancing on the sideline no problemo, impossible to push if you want! - remember it is up to you if you use the skill. I have surprised a lot of frenzy norse that way and suddenly you choose the dice, killing ulfwerners is fun!)

    Never played longer than that but Thick skull is a handy skill.

    With doubles:

    Block always unless its double 6.

    Second double, I prefer Claw - I see the ogre as a fine tuned killing machine, not a roadblock. Think it has to low AV to be used that way.

    Third double is tackle/horns/pro depending on what kind of league your in.
     
  12. Zweistein

    Zweistein Member

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    i kind of dont agree here.
    ok my ratogre almost never starts on the LOS and is moving in the needed position with blitz ... but then he is with his prey and his neighbour. allmost everytime the opponent is adding 1 or 2 players to the ratogreparty. so next turn the ogre is agains 3-4 players .. how and why should he blitz?
    my tactic is to sacrifice a lineman to chancel or give assists and then simply block one of the oponent players (most of the time the weakest). the block is disigned the way that the rat ogre is pulling himself out of the crowd and is ending next to my lineman. so now there are 2 players of my side, hopfully one opponent down and some more around. and most of them in no direct contact to my players.

    but primary objective is that the rat ogre is blocking the direct way between all the oposing players i mentioned and my ballcarrier. so there is the choice:
    a) mess with the ratogre and your're losing 3-4 players (maybe 5) for the atack of the ball
    b) run around the ratogre and mostly dont reach the main atack of the ball and the rat ogre is free to blitz next turn ... or there is one player left for dinner and the sacrificed lineman might be free to move again.
    either way its good for the TD!
    .. ok ok there is a c) ... the ratogre messes all up and is falling on his face. :p


    on defence you often just have the chance to blitz one corner of the cage with him and end in the main atack of the opponent ... so how do you want to pull yourself free here and blitz next turn? your just might be lucky and the ratogre is still standing and can dig himself still deeper in :eek: ... in direction of the ball.


    especialy frenzy is good this way, because you can adjudicate to digg yourself in or out of the bloody mess, simply by diciding where you push your prey and goes not to waste. or better thats the real strenght of the ratogre.
    juggernaut is realy good to make this decent reliable.
    Guard helps on the long run. because if the ratogre is digged in deep, the rescue-team still gets help from the rescued one.
     
  13. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Everybody you play puts a bunch of tackle zones on the rat ogre? Unless they have a lot of guard or high ST you're either playing against people who enjoy getting punched or are incredibly charitable.

    Most of the time I play with a Big Guy of any variety if they can't amass the dice to knock him down then they'd tend to either leave one expendable player next to him so that he's tied up or alternatively keep players at least a square away from them and just form a wall so that he's forced to either blitz or move normally and risk the wild animal rolls leaving him left behind. And if he's getting tied up and you're relying on him for protection then you're slowing your drive right down which as skaven isn't always desirable.

    And let's be honest, if they DO make the effort to knock him down then the AV8 means the rat could be in trouble eventually anyway.

    Obviously this is all down to personal play style, but personally I'd use him as a road-clearer on offense (if he's being man-marked then trying to blitz the marker and then run forward if he's knocked them down) and a cage-breaker on defense.
     
  14. Zweistein

    Zweistein Member

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    most of the times i dont want to use the valuable blitz with a player with the chance to just do nothing. so most of the times one of my GR is doing the blitzerjob ...

    the Ratogre-blitz is for special situations like:
    - Cagecorner with main goal to lay tacklezones at the ballcarrier.
    - Crowdpushes (if i can protect him after the blitz!)
    - tie down 3-4 players which are standing very close together

    if i recieve the ratogre starts next to an opponent most of the times. so no blitz needed here.

    as a close protection to your offence or the ball he is just to unreliable.
     
  15. Ian

    Ian Member

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    Well clearly I'm not saying the rat ogre should be blitzing at the expense of blocking a player who's already right next to him*, but you've got to work on the assumption that a smart player is, one way or the other (even if it means failed dodges), going to try and move away from the rat rather than just taking repeated punchings, unless they're using an expendable, cheap player to intentionally keep your rat ogre out of the game.

    And if he's NOT got a player next to him then with Wild Animal it's much easier to move him on a blitz.

    * with the exception of times you desperately need a blitz with a high strength player if your rat has Break Tackle.
     
  16. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    I've got disturbing presence for my rat ogre with the logic it cuts down the number of hits he takes and increases his survivability.

    My build so far is Break Tackle, Guard, Block and Disturbing Presence and so far I love it, though I can't pretend I'm the expert, and obviously I got lucky in this respect. Considering Mighty Blow next.
     
  17. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Did you mean Foul Appearance? Disturbing Presence affects catching the ball within three squares.
     
  18. happygrue

    happygrue New Member

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    I don't think that I would go for the rat ogre in my starting team (I'm a sucker for rerolls - especially when they are cheap at the start!), but I understand the desire to have a specific plan with a team - especially an outside the box plan. ;)

    For my money, this would be the best starting team that has a rat ogre:
    180 for 3RR
    250 for 5 Linerats
    70 for 1 Thrower
    160 for 2 Gutter Runners
    180 for 2 Blitzers
    160 for the ogre

    This gets both blitzers and the ogre into play with a decent number of rerolls to start. Another gutter runner is cheap enough to pick up in maybe 3-4 games (after an apoth)

    As far as leveling the ogre goes, I would think it depends on if you get doubles on your first roll. I'd surely take block if you can get it, but if not then you might consider the juggernaut path. The reason being the amazing combo with frenzy. Why break tackles when you can move 3 spaces almost anywhere by blitzing (where juggernaut gives you even more benefits than block) and frenzying your way out of whatever tackle zones you are in. The goal would then be to get next to the guy you really want to hit and make him fight with your prehensile tail (and perhaps a blitzer with tackle also). So you don't have the option of braking a tackle and blitzing a tempting target, but you have other great options and you can make him squirm next turn still. And you can do this without rolling doubles after 2 skill picks!

    The catch is that block is better on defense, but needs the doubles. I made the case for Shadowing on a Krox in the other thread, but I wouldn't take it on anyone with Frenzy, as the juggernaut-grab combo seems too good to me. Then you can also throw Guard on there with a 3rd skill so that you can frenzy you way into someplace useful. Or if you get doubles after already taking Juggernaut you could use it on Pro (I agree, really great on the wild animals and bone-heads) or tackle (great while blocking and combos well with the tail again).

    That's my $0.02 anyway... take it with a grain of salt! :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
  19. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    You can't get Grab if you have Frenzy. Juggernaut would be my first choice skill for one though unless I get a double.

    I got so used to playing without a Rat Ogre though that I'm happy enough playing Skaven without them.
     
  20. happygrue

    happygrue New Member

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    ah, of course. Silly me attempting to take advantage of a combo that would be so broken that it isn't allowed! ;)