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Undead Team progression and tactics.

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by BagOBones, Nov 18, 2009.

  1. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Australia
    Evening all. Firstly, please allow me to introduce you to the team, "Bowl Till You Bleed" (yes, I'm a Dexter fan...) ;)

    Even using courier I can't get this to format right... sorry.:confused:
    Position Stats Skills SPP
    Mummy 2519 Block, Mighty Blow, Regeneration 9
    Mummy 3519 Guard, Mighty Blow, Regeneration 11
    Wight 6338 Block, Guard, Regeneration 12
    Wight 6338 Block, Guard, Regeneration 7
    Ghoul 7337 Block, Dodge 13
    Ghoul 7337 Block, Dodge 9
    Zombie 4328 Regeneration, Wrestle 8
    Skeleton 5327 Regeneration, Thick Skull 2
    Skeleton 5327 Regeneration, Thick Skull 5
    Skeleton 5327 Regeneration, Thick Skull 0
    Zombie 4328 Regeneration 2
    Ghoul 7337 Dodge 1


    1st Mummy is -1MV. Got it in the first game of all things.
    Rerolls = 3.
    Retired (read "really" dead) players were a Ghoul & a Zombie.

    I think the skill choices to date are ok, with the possible exception of the Zombie with wrestle. I wan't to try and use him against big guys to opem them to fouls. It's an idea. Whether it's a good one is yet to be seen.

    The next game to play is against a nest of dirty rats. Their coach likes to give the ball to his gutter runner and just run it down the line. He also has a rat ogre he creates a bit of havoc with.

    So, the first question is, are there any suggestions on how to make the rat's lives as hard as possible (looking for suggestions for both defense/offence setups).

    With 4 players coming up for their next advancement, I'd just like to sanity check my thoughts (in order of preference).
    Mummy 2: +ST,+AV,Block,Piling On
    Wight 1: +ST,+AG, +MV, Dodge, Tackle
    Ghoul 1: +AV, +AG, Accurate, Diving Catch
    Skellie 2: +MV, +ST, Guard, Wreslte

    The ghouls are likely to be purpose built 1 each blitzer, thrower, catcher. Having a move 7 blitzer will likely come in handy. ;)

    Thoughts or suggestions are greatfully received.

    Many thanks guys.

    BagOBones.
     
  2. jamesprobert

    jamesprobert Member

    Messages:
    33
    If you get the option take +Mv on the first mummy, avoid stand-up rolls at all costs, otherwise I'd wait till you have the cash and replace him,
    asides from that your choices look good to me.

    If you're want a blitzer ghoul, I'd probably look at making him more of a ball extractor, with wrestle, strip ball and tackle.
     
  3. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    As per the main site, I wouldn't bother with Piling On for the Mummy, Grab or Break Tackle are probably more useful.

    I'd get Side Step on the Ghouls, Wrestle on the unskilled one.
    For a thrower, Wights are probably better as they can get strong arm on normal rolls, though you only have two. Personally I'd not build a thrower, if you wanted one take a different team!

    If you have moved onto the LRB6 rules (now we know Diving Catch gives +1 to catches from an accurate pass) then there is some merit for that as well but I still think Side Step and then Diving Tackle is better.
     
  4. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Australia
    By this you're indicating avoid Piling On?

    That was where I was wanting to head one of the guys that already has Block.

    Ok... I'm noticing a theme here. No Piling on. Check. :D

    Personally, I'm not sold on Grab as the Mummy doesn't have the MA to get to most positions of interest unless lucky. Break Tackle would improve his chances of getting to these places, so that seems logical. Grab can be after that.

    On the MA2 Mummy, Multi Block seems reasonable. As there is so much Guard around (and there will be more), this would still allow 2x 2d blocks with when a guard assists on each side against ST3 players. As he can't make the distance, he could free up one of the others that can.

    Maybe I'm using my team in a not so correct manner, but it's not uncommon for me to be in a position where the cage can't quite be formed around the ball carrier due to low movement, but it can be set up around a reciever to then grind down the field. I've thought about the Wights, and that makes sense. The only issue is, with AV7, no Regen & (currently) no Guard, I'm reluctant to use a Ghoul as a Wight replacement. (Does that make sense?)

    It might also surprise the oposition to have an Undead team with an acceptable passing game. ;)

    LRB6 (or at least it's closest relative) are indeed the rules we're using. The unskilled Ghoul I was thinking of building as a ball retriever. As above, having low movment on the team can limit the ability to form a cage quickly, particularly if the ball is in a less than ideal location. A smattering of Pass skills allows him to clear it more effectively.

    Certainly Side Step on the others, but I think I'm leaning towards Kick-off Return & Diving Catch on this guy... Maybe.

    Someone talk me out of it.... ;)
     
  5. jamesprobert

    jamesprobert Member

    Messages:
    33
    Why give him block as well? if you do that, then one of those skills is going to be wasted every time someone rolls a bothdown.

    Indeed, to me atleast, if a mummy uses PO, I'd instantly be looking for the gang foul, or to shift the play across the pitch and leave him miles out of position

    I like the idea of grab, and it could be very useful for increasing the options of a OTS, if things get that desperate :eek: or for surfing SideStepers, although that's probably a wight use more than a mummy use :)


    I'd say the main Method of Operation for undead, should be a wall protecting the ball carrier as he collects the ball, which shifts to a sort of spike through the centre, or down one side (I'll do some play creator stuff showing this when i have the time), so it's more of a loose cage than a tight one, where your mummies start the force, then naturally roll backwards through the 'cage' till it spits out the BC into the endzone
     
  6. sunnyside

    sunnyside Member

    Messages:
    94
    I was toying with the idea of undead myself.

    What do people think of fend on a ghoul as a second or third skill?

    My thinking was that (with block), it negates piling on and frenzy in almost all cases, makes chainblocking hard, and may often leave the ghoul unmarked after taking a hit.

    Since they're prone to death, I thought the skill would keep them on the field as well as improving their effectivness.
     
  7. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    With Block and Dodge already they are tricky to knock over, not many players early on will have Piling On and Tackle, players getting these skills will be skilling up slower than a Ghoul as well.

    So Side Step I think is far more versatile than Fend, and you can get fend after that, though I would probably still not take Fend and go for Diving Tackle. A good defence will win games more often than a good offence will, and Fend isn't as good for stopping the other team as Side Step and Diving Tackle. It isn't a bad skill though and it's stock rises in leagues with lots of Piling On and Frenzy about.

    As for using a Ghoul to replace the job of a Wight, no I wouldn't do that either, hence I wouldn't build a thrower!
     
  8. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Australia
    Ok... I think I'm getting it.

    * No piling on for the mummies.
    * By all means use Block OR Wrestle, but there are better choices instead of having both on any given player.
    * Forget about throwers in Undead.

    * Side Step on a Ghoul = good thing. ;)

    So Ghoul 3 will go with jamesprobert's wrestle, strip ball & tackle. Ghouls 1 & 2 can both get Side Step as per Coach.

    I've got a lot of learning to do still, huh... *sigh*

    Thanks very much for your collective wisdom guys. It is muchly appreciated.

    We only get to play a TT game as part of our league every 6 weeks or so. What are peoples thoughts of me creating Play Creator files for my next game against the Skaven for critiquing? I am intending to write up a team blog like voyagersuk and don't know if this extra level of information would be useful or over kill.
     
  9. jamesprobert

    jamesprobert Member

    Messages:
    33
    Ok, I said I would do a plan of attack for an undead team here it is, I've used Humans as a 'classic' opposition, but this sort of attack will work against basically anyone. The only caveat I'd put on this is that you need to be a bit more careful about positioning when you face multiple S4+ players (pact, Khemri, anyone who got lucky enough, and can tie your mummies up, and still have bonus strength running around)

    [PLAY-CREATOR]4210[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    This is my prefered setup, it provides good ball cover wherever the ball lands, assuming that your opponents don't get a blitz, you should have the ball behind a shield, out of range, or several at once, like this

    [PLAY-CREATOR]4214[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    The objective in the first turn, is to get a strength advantage, so the more of his players you get off the pitch the better, then, chances are he'll run around you and go after the ball, so then comes the hardest part of the drive, going forwards with your mummies, while forcing a hole behind your main line to run the ball through, into a loose cage, such that by about turns 3 or 4 things look something like this

    [PLAY-CREATOR]4215[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    Then it's just a matter of forcing the front of this cage down the field, until the Ball Carrier is in range of the line, like this

    [PLAY-CREATOR]4216[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    Before releasing him on T8 to score.

    There is one Final Stage, If you get time for it, which goes like this

    [PLAY-CREATOR]4219[/PLAY-CREATOR]

    However, it's highly unlikely that you'll have the time to perform this 'Stalling Stage', if you do, you've probably got more players off the pitch than I'm showing here :)
     
  10. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

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    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks jamesprobert.

    That looks so simple on paper (so to speak). Very much appreciated. The next game I have is on the 13th of Dec, with Skaven. I'll let you know how it goes.

    I'm please you said the hardest part of the drive was getting the mummies moving up. That's something I've not been able to do well at all. The making the hole, not too much of a problem. Keeping the strength, now there's a challenge. If the MA2 mummy didn't have block, I'd ditch him to be replaced at the earliest oportunity. Unfortunately, he knew the best way to remain animated was to pick up a double skill (crafty bugger he was ;) ).

    While I understand the 2-1 grind principle of kicking first, is it worthwhile when I'm facing skaven with a rat ogre to recieve first and attempt to get him off the field before he has a shot at me (asuming he's put on the LOS), or at least get some of those quick blighters off the field earlier than later?

    Again, many thanks. Very much appreciated.
     
  11. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    The MV2 on the mummy really hampers you, especially as he has to roll to stand up now. You made a mistake by even rolling a skill on him tempting you into not just sacking him. I'd look to get rid of him personally.

    In order to keep the mummies moving you need to have your team mates in positions to free them up to move or blitz. When you end your turns try to look to have moved a player (even a Zombie) next to players who are tying the mummy up. Mummies will usually get Guard fairly quickly so you can aim to just even get a push to free the Mummy to move.

    As for a rat ogre, I wouldn't be overly worried about it getting a shot at you, it will only be one hit on one player and then you can hit it back. I would also doubt that most coaches place the rat ogre on the LOS when they are kicking, if they are, then they shouldn't be!
     
  12. jamesprobert

    jamesprobert Member

    Messages:
    33
    Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough, what I meant was that the hardest part of the drive, for undead at least, is IMHO Always the second turn of the drive, where the mummy line has been outflanked, you need to keep the mummies moving towards your opponent's end zone, or they'll be isolated when you're finishing off the drive/stalling, and would probably be targeted for pitch removal by your opponent. However, while creating this forward momentum with the mummies, you need to be clearing a hole behind in the out flanking line, such that you can bring the ball into the 'cage' that is forming with the mummies as one side of it, maybe i need to do an extra post to show this pivotal stage, but when i tried it felt messy:(

    I think I have to agree with Coach here, fire that mummy ASAYHTC (as soon as you have the cash (to replace him))

    I wouldn't choose to recieve in the hopes of getting him because he's been put on the LOS, the sensible thing for your Opp would be to set it up behind the LOS, to blitz any opportunity.

    If you really are that worried about the RO, my reccomendation is to set up to offer him a frenzy crowdsurf that needs 2 GFI's from the RO to get it.
    If he's a sucker and falls for it, you should be able to get a -2db into the crowd fairly easily, but TBH you can pretty much ignore the RO and trust to WA needing it to blitz to be reliable, just don't leave anyone standing next to it!!! ;)

    If he does put it on the LOS when you drive, then that is an opportune moment to drop it and foul it, but don't go out of your way about it, those GR's are what will win him the game not the Rat Ogre (unless it's like +ST Block, but then it will be rediculously overpriced and you'll get more inducements) so target the GR's with 3db's in preferance to the rat ogre, and be ready to foul those GR's (with enough assists of course) :)
     
  13. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

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    Location:
    Australia
    Today's the day.... I know it's been a while, but it's finaally here.

    I hope Nuffle remember's me, favourably. ;)
     
  14. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Good Luck, fingers crossed!
     
  15. BagOBones

    BagOBones New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks Coach. I think that's what saved me from the loss. ;)

    A draw against an experienced skaven coach? I'm pleased. :D

    Rough synopsis:
    Won the toss and elected to kick. Assured the skaven scored in two turns (as opposed to more).
    Receieved, fumbled the ball early in this drive as I tried to pass with a Ghoul to another so as to get a bit further up the field and also get the skill points. In the back of my head I could hear you all scalding me for that. Regained and kept control for rest of the half, scoring on turn 8.

    2nd half saw me rec and lose the ball through being blocked & skaven scoring shortly after. Turn 4 saw undead receieve again and fail another pass, but this time designed just in order to clear the ball (so not all bad). Collected the ball and scored my turn 8 again.:cool:

    OK. Ok. You all told me... No passing with undead. Check.

    Interestingly, casualties were very low at 2, with one of these caused by the crowd! Go figure.

    Advancements to Ghoul 4 = Sure Hands, Skeleton 7 = Block. 70k of winnings granted enough to fire and hire mummy 1. Now no more rolling to stand up!

    Thanks guys. Your guidance has been of great assistance. :D
     
  16. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Sounds like a fairly standard game, two casualties in a match isn't anywhere near unusual either.

    Best of luck in the next one.