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Team viability questions

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by Gallows Bait, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    Hey all,

    Following my various experiments with teams online since LE came out I've dabbled with Orc, Chaos and Elf.

    Right now I'm realising that whilst I've enjoyed the bloodbath that Orcs and Chaos can create, and my lethal Minotaur in particular has been a lot of fun, I just don't win often with these kinds of teams, or at least, not often enough.

    I'm finding it quite common for my cage defence to fail around turn 6 and concede a touchdown without having the time available to equalise before half time, leaving me playing either for a 1-1 draw, or more often, trying for a quick touchdown and hoping for a chance to take the ball later in the game. And this often leads to errors on my part, and ending up 2-0 down when I screw up.

    So I'm thinking as a result of this I need to look again at the teams I've been trying out and see if there's a way to find a team that will help me deal with these issues.

    Right now I'm tempted to try for a team that will hold up reasonably in cage defence, but that will be more capable of putting a 2 turn touchdown in if it goes wrong.

    Given my experiences with Elves, I'm also tempted to put an emphasis on a team with an average armour of 8, rather than 7.

    So this is leaving me thinking possibly:

    Dark Elves, High Elves or Human.

    Now I know Humans lack the agility, but the cost factor ways up heavily in their favour, plus I do like the idea of the blitzers, which vitally have block and strength access, which elves tend to lack, plus you can have 4 of them on the team.

    So, I guess I'm asking if people think that the Human team would be a viable option for this kind of game play, also, if I do go down this route, how vital do people find the Ogre?

    For Chaos my minotaur was great when he worked but frustrating when he failed, whereas the Troll on my Orc team was more trouble than he was worth, so I'm tempted to try out a team without the big guy for once.

    Are there any teams I'm overlooking that people feel might fit also?
     
  2. Doover

    Doover Member

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    I haven´t played humies a lot so feel free to ignore this.
    I think as Human you realy need the Ogre. Without him they are to weak to stay in the brawl but can´t just dodge away like elfs. They also lack the agility of Elfs for a running/passing game. I´m not a big fan of humies even when I got some big defeates against them.
    Ok Humies have the advantage to be quite cheap so they should be quite good in a short league but they are simply not my race.

    If you don´t want to play with a Big Guy you should try out Dark Elf. With 4 Blitzer from the Beginning they can fight and most of their player have AV 8. (At least at the start. You can mix in the AV 7 player when you get used to the Team.)
    Ok their Blitzer lack Strengh skills they have Agility skills for that. Will be hard to get a lot of Guard but you can get more players where you need them ´cause of AG 4 and getting Dodge.
     
  3. John McGuirk

    John McGuirk Well-Known Member

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    The Ogre is pretty good and believe me, the Humans need him. The important thing to remember is not just to two dice with him because you can. In vital moments he's good to have as a blocking option, but most of the time you just want to use him as a roadblock to lock down a section of the pitch or tie up a few opposing players.

    In some of my most successful drives with the humans he did nothing at all except standing on the halfway line and exerting Guard.

    I wouldn't take the Humans as a fast scoring team, however. Elves do that infinitely better because fast scoring needs so many AG rolls, for which reroll skills such as Pass and Dodge just can't compensate.

    That said, have you thought about Lizardmen? I've never tried them, but I do know that their MV8 Stunty + Dodge players are an enormous pain to defend against. Especially with the big brutes marking you up and knocking you over..
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2011
  4. Coach

    Coach Administrator Head Coach

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    Humans are probably the hardest of those three teams to win with, while the Blitzers have strength access, the team doesn't have anyone with agility access and ST3.

    Not sure why you are having trouble defending cages with Orcs and Chaos though, unless you aren't taking many defensive skills like Stand Firm and at least one Diving Tackle can hold up a ball carrier. Then a blitzing player with Strip Ball can step in when they off load the ball to a non Sure Hands player (most teams tend not to have more than one on the pitch at a time).

    High Elves are the best of those three at scoring in two turns though, with high agility and passing skills that the Dark Elves lack.
     
  5. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    To be fair I'm struggling to work out exactly why I'm doing so badly on defence. I've tightened up my game play as best I can, holding back from pushing too many players forward and trying not to rush my defence all over to one side of the pitch, but I just seem to get battered back and eventually one side or other of my defence breaks and the ball carrier scampers away through the gap.

    As for skills, they're rarely top of the list when I'm prioritising skills such as block and guard and even then my teams are high value by that point.

    For example, with my Chaos team I've played 13 matches and less than half the team have gained skills, so getting a diving tackle or stand firm in isn't going to have happened yet. But with a couple of bench subs and the apoth and 4 re-rolls, the team value is already over 1400. I suppose I could skimp on the subs since it seems most of my opponants do, but even with Orc I seem to rarely kick off with a numbers advantage due to the frequency of KOs & injuries I seem to receive and on Chaos that's even more noticable.

    I suppose tightening up the defence is an alternative, its just something I'm finding markedly difficult.
     
  6. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    I would like o suggest a team that isn't on your list at all but meets the criteria - the Lizardmen. They have a really nice balance of strength and speed. If you have a skink within scoring range you can score TD's anytime you win the ball, and the movement of the Sauri is something I find to be quite forgiving of mistakes defensively. Nobody finds it easy to score against these guys and the threat of a quick score is always on.
     
  7. RogueThirteen

    RogueThirteen Member

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    Humans can feasibly score two-turn touchdowns, though obviously not as easily as the high elves or dark elves.


    One perk of the humans is that they are incredibly reliable at performing average-difficulty actions. They can start with a thrower (pass), a catcher (catch and dodge), four blitzers (block), an Apothecary, and 4 Rerolls. This gives you access to a lot more skill and team rerolls than most other teams will have. You also get four rerolls on the cheap before they double in cost, so it's not going to inflate your eventual team value by $100,000-140,000 each for a third/fourth reroll like it will for all the other teams.


    Elven players will be more reliable than Human players, but the human team taken as a whole is more resilient and forgiving given the extra rerolls, starting apothecary, and relatively cheap players.

    Additionally, as a Lizardmen player, I wouldn't recommend the Lizardmen for what you're looking for. A two-turn touchdown with Lizardmen is really hard to pull off if your opponent is paying attention, because passing is not an option given the skink's stunty trait (and you'll typically only have 2-3 rerolls, which you'll have to burn on ball pick-ups, hand-offs, and failed Sauri blocks). Though, the Sauri can mount a more successful cage-roadblock than humans or elves, assuming you can keep them mobile enough. Lizardmen are a solid team and a blast to play, but they're pretty unique in their offense and defense (maybe pretty similar to the Ogre team). Imagine making an Orc team of just Black Orcs, Goblins, and maybe a Troll -- that's basically the Lizardmen, though they are a bit faster.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2011
  8. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    For me I score often in one or two turns, although its easier on defence than offence for the reasons you stated.

    When your oppo is surging forward they don't pay as much attention to that sneaky skink in their half. He doesn't necessarily have to be advanced enough to score just advanced enough to get clear of any defenders.

    As for the other once you are four or five squares inside your opponents half the TD is on, whether you have receivers or not. If you save re-rolls for that eventuality you are in business. You can bash that far forward pretty easily.

    But I agree with what you're saying. I just think that its so easy to turn defence into attack with them.

    And I think skinks are awesome. That movement increase makes them far more dangerous than goblins even if the stats are the same otherwise.

    With good stat increases on a skink (MV or AG) you become even more of a threat.
     
  9. Etheric

    Etheric Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if you are confused there, after team creation RR are twice the price to buy, but they only add the normal value to the TV.

    I do like lizards though :D, will ahve to give them another go, will start wtih 6 saurus 3RR thoguh, 5 was too vulnerable to losing one.

    I would echo what is said up there though, if you are leaking a TD late to a cage make sure it is not because you are moving players from the backfield to get a 2D block in. I have been guilty of doing that too much in the past, and you do leak touchdowns. And with a chaos team you are then more or less just playing for a draw if they score.
     
  10. RogueThirteen

    RogueThirteen Member

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    That's great news that rerolls bought at double cost don't raise the TV by that price. I was struggling with whether or not to buy a third reroll early in my league, given I didn't want my TV to go up 120,000.


    Additionally, I find that on the offense my opponents never ever let skinks hang out in their half. They'll either blitz the skink or cover him thoroughly. Now, skinks have no problem getting out of coverage, but they have to get the ball before they dodge and run for the endzone, since passing isn't a real option. Which means you have to try a hand-off to a skink that's in coverage, and that's usually too risky unless you're behind and desperate to score fast.

    But I agree, on defense skinks are deadly if the kick is short enough for them to reach and the opponent is not expecting them. Most opponents don't plan for skinks to come flying past the offensive line and grab the ball, especially if you've set up so that you appear to be hiding your fragile skinks behind the Sauri. It's usually good for a a once-per-opponent surprise touchdown possibility. And defensive touchdowns are the ones that win games.
     
  11. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    I still think there's a good chance of scoring on offence. Like I say you don't have to be especially deep in the opponents half for a skink to be able to bust from the cage and score himself, and often for me the true benefit of a skink in position to receive is as a decoy for that eventuality.

    The other option is to fire a few forward (they can only blitz one) and try and have a Saurus in position to blitz a marked skink free.

    As for too risky, I am learning that the handoff is what you save your reroll for. Then its not that risky, especially when you throw Catch on a couple.

    The fact you can score quick but you don't necessarily have to is the thing I'm liking most about lizards.
     
  12. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    Well, following on from all the feedback, I've decided to create some new teams and give things ago for several and see how I get on.

    With my Beastman team being retired on Monday, following a game with 4 major injuries including -1 Strength to my star Minotaur and one beastman dead, it was time to start up new teams.

    Last night was the turn of the human team, and I decided to play it safe and take Coach's recommended line up.

    The first game I tried I ended up conceding after taking 1 dead, 1 badly hurt and 1 KO at kick off followed by 2 more badly hurt (including the Ogre) by turn 5.

    By which point I'd conceded 1 touchdown and my opponant had kicked short & gotten a blitz on the second kick off. (Why is it everytime an opponant kicks short they get the blitz, its happened to me about 8 times now, never when its kicked deep, not once).

    I simply wasn't going to waste my time playing out a match with a team that would get retired immediately after, since being first game its not worth keeping a crippled team.

    My second fresh team hasn't faired much better. I was faced with a nurgle team (4 warriors, 4 pestigors, 4 rotters) and managed to keep it to a 1-1 draw, including a good throwing play.

    Unfortunately the second half saw my Ogre with broken ribs and he will miss my next game.

    So I'm unsure right now whether to risk the next game without him, and keep the 10 spp I've earned (1 mvp, 2 throws, 1 td) in the hopes of leveling up quicker, or whether to simply start over again.

    Next up I'll be creating lizard and high elf line ups as well.
     
  13. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    Hey Gallows, if you ever want to test a team, you can contact me on these forums. I would be happy to play you in a test match in Auld World or something. You could pick the team you wanted me to play as. Just a thought.

    As an aside, I will mention that the times I made the 4RR, 1 Minotaur, 10 Beastman Chaos team I always ended up suffering terrible casualties. Sceadeau swears it's great though.
     
  14. Ork from Mork

    Ork from Mork New Member

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    From your earlier post, it sounds like your main defensive problem is that your not leaving one or two guys in the back field as safeties to catch anyone that manages to break through. With chaos, you usually only need to leave one beastman in the back because he can blitz with horns. Most people don't leave safeties in the back and end up losing because their opponent made some crazy dodges through their wall or threw a long bomb to some guy.

    I lost two games recently because my oppoents threw highly unlikely passes and got lucky. I didn't lose because they got lucky, though. I lost because I didn't have anyone in the backfield to stop them from scoring after they made those catches and dodges. Both times, I could've at least had a chance to stop the guy from scoring, but all of my fast players were on the other side of the pitch. My last game was against a slann team, so I made sure I ALWAYS had someone in the back to catch any frogs that leapt over my line and, sure enough, every time a frog made a break for the endzone, I had someone there to stop him and I ended up winning the game.
     
  15. Barninho

    Barninho Well-Known Member

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    I'd echo that. Had a team that won 5 of their first 7 games recently, before being retired (I tend to press that red X far too easy) and the key for me was making sure even if you don't have a deep safety, you have at the very least three beasts not tied up for that two dice block.

    I think that's a pretty good general rule for any team. Even if your team is designed for a ruck you don't want to be tied up in.