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Undead or Necro

Discussion in 'Blood Bowl 2' started by ManBearPig, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. ManBearPig

    ManBearPig Well-Known Member

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    I am rerolling my team for BC2 for next season. I have enjoyed playing the Undead, but now the Necro are coming before the next seasons begins. I have been playing Necro in the Beta, and really like them too. I am not sure which race is best for me, or the type of league. I really like the Mummies with the Undead, but have mixed feelings about the skeletons. Necro I really like the Werewolves, and their decent amount of players who can cover the field rather quickly.

    On a side note I rolled AGI on a WW and took it on my necro team. Was pretty awesome, but I wondered if such a move was bad form. I mention this because it may help with my decision. I really liked having that AG4 MV8 player around.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Tjorne

    Tjorne Member

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    Well I guess you know the old rule of thumb: Undead are better at low TV, Necro better at high TV.
    Personally I really prefer Necro and I'm looking forward to playing them. Werewolves are maybe my favourite players in the game. The speed and Claw make them very strong, Frenzy allows for Crowdsurfs (and even more important, the threat of Crowdsurfs) from the very beginning and Regeneration keeps them going - until you really need it, of course. Flesh Golems look worse than Mummies at first, but they can get Block on a normal roll and start with SF (good for sideline control, especially together with the Frenzy...), so overall I'd call them about equal to Mummies.

    With regards to +AGI on a wolf: I would take it, but it may not be optimal. I've had a +Agi wolf in the past (the other wolf was a MB PO monster) and he saved lots of games almost by himself. If you don't take +Agi, then you get two alrounder/killers, but on the other hand +Agi is good for an alrounder, too. Of course Frenzy is not optimal on a Ballcarrier, so you might still ise a Ghoul for that and take the +Agi wolf for ball retrieval, as catcher and general utility Blitzer-In-Difficult-Positions.
    A typical wolf in my team would get Block, Sidestep, Dodge, Tackle. MB and PO on the first and second Double, of course. I would not take +Agi before Block, but after that it may well be worth it (and you could swap the order of Dodge and Sidestep because I think Dodge is better with Agi 4). Oh, and don't forget: only if you take Agi4 then you can possibly get Agi 5. And I guess an agi 5, MA 8 piece is just what you want to dodge into a sideline cage...
     
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  3. SlyAnimal

    SlyAnimal Well-Known Member

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    I thought that Undead looked awesome, but Necro are pretty much amazing.

    Having those 2x claw players just makes such a massive difference.

    Compared to undead you basically have:

    2x Wights vs 2x Wights
    2x Ghouls vs 2x Ghouls
    2x Ghouls vs 2x Werewolves - Werewolves with claw + frenzy + regen +AV8 + MA8, as well as still having Agi access, are simply miles ahead here.
    2x Mummies vs 2x Flesh Golems - A tough pick here, they both have strengths and weaknesses, I'd call it even.

    Undead can choose skeletons instead of just zombies for their fodder, but it's much of a muchness.

    So to me, the real difference simply comes down to 2x Werewolves vs 2x Ghouls, which make Necro simply superior to Undead.

    And +Agi on a werewolf would sound like a good option to me. As I'd be wanting to get 1x Agi 4 ball carrier, either a ghoul or a werewolf, I'd be hoping for a ghoul, but with MA8 & agi access a werewolf could be a good carrier (Frenzy wouldn't be ideal, but if they have agi 4 (And dodge access) they can at least still dodge away from most situations that they frenzy into).
     
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  4. ManBearPig

    ManBearPig Well-Known Member

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    @Tjorne Everything you makes sense, and Is basically what I was thinking as well. Though I must admit I hadn't thought about the advantages that the Flesh Golems bring. I guess I was too focused on that ST5 of the mummies. I really did enjoy the 4AG on the WW, and i am really thinking I am going to have more fun with the Necro. It seems the Undead are easy to keep at a Low TV, but not sure how well that would work in a long league like BC2. Appreciate the thoughts

    @SlyAnimal They are pretty amazing thus far. I have been having fun with the game again while playing them, but I was having fun with the Undead as well. I think that is what is making my decision so tough. I really don't care much for the Skeletons. Better than Zombies? I guess, but not by much, and that is my big draw back for Undead.

    I agree the +agi on the WW wasn't maybe the best option, but I took the first one that rolled it between the ghouls and WW. I figure scoring TD would certainly the best way to Lvl up a WW to a beast, and getting out of sticky situations after a frenzy is really nice...

    I think I am going to end up going necro, hopefully a ton of others don't do the same.
     
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  5. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    I think SlyAnimal is simplifying it too much to say necro is better because wolves are better than ghouls.

    For a start undead wights and Necro wights may look the same on paper but they develop differently.
    With undead your main blitzers are the wights. These have S access so can get MB and PO.
    With a necro team the primary blitzers are the wolves as they have claws and frenzy. However these players need doubles to get MB and PO.
    Wolves with doubles are better than wights with doubles but with all normal rolls the wights are better at blitzing.

    Necro wights are more support players and will take guard on the 1st skill up and probably never get PO.

    Also Undead have 4 chances to get that key +AG for their ballcarrier. The necro team only have 2 shots as an +AG wolf is still a blitzer and you don't want to be wasting his offensive skills by having him carry the ball.
     
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  6. DireSickFish

    DireSickFish Well-Known Member

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    Is it really that bad to have your Wolves as the main ball carrier? I see MV8 with General and Agility access and I think "easy scoring threat". You still have the other wolf to blitz with and odds of rolling doubles on both of them are rather low. This also means you can turn both Ghouls into sackers with Wrestle, as no one else on the team can really fill that roll. If Ghouls are your main ball carrier you need Block+Sure Hands.

    It's not like the team is super hitty to begin with. Flesh Golems may make good roadblocsk, but they can't tie up as many players as Mummies, and are worse at pitch removal due to not starting with MB. Heck MB looks like a 3rd skill pick up on them witch is a looong way off for a player that's never going to score.

    I haven't played Necro before, just undead since they've been released. So it's mostly theorycrafting on my part. I get that Frenzy+Claw are bad ball handling skills, but they have good development for it and great statline.
     
  7. Jeliel

    Jeliel Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn’t use a wolf as a ball carrier, which doesn’t mean I won’t feed them TD, especially at the start.
    Anyway... cannot count the times that a WW saved a draw or made a win possible…
     
  8. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    There's been necro teams with wolf ballcarriers, both those playing without ghouls (lousy non-regen players) and those who just rolled +move and +ag on a wolf and went with it (block dodge sure hands) - both did well, so it's not a do all or end all.

    But the general suggestion is to carry with a ghoul, then often hand off to a wolf for the score, and a +AG wolf there is simply superb as well, and free to blitz around until the time comes.
     
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  9. Cram

    Cram Active Member

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    Without getting a double on a werewolf Necros wont do much harm (much less than those ST5 MB guys in the undead team), so they are not better out of the box.
    Just different...
    Undead shine in low and mid TV.
    Necros are always a good team in all TVs, but never great. Something like the better parts of a human team put together again...
    :D

    So Necros should be better in the long run for private league play, while Undead are better suited for open leagues...

    AG4 on a wolf is nice, but i would never make him a native ballcarrier, he is too important to mostly not take part in the blocking game anymore (and i dont want to waste a skill for sure hands on him).
    He becomes a good option, though, running 7 with a ghoul to make a handoff and run 8 again takes you pretty far if need be and the risks get lower with AG4 plus some elven dodging all along.
    For the case your ghoul might be out (i never take more than 1 in a necro team; too expensive and too vulnerable), he is your alternative.
    I think lots of peaople will disagree, but i don't like ghouls at all. They are good ballcarrier with blodge, sure hands and kick-off return, but besides that i prefer to have 2 more unskilled zombies in my team than 1 more ghoul. Zombies rule!!!
    :D
     
  10. sbr32

    sbr32 Well-Known Member

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    First off don't get too wrapped up in tv; @danton won bc12 with undead and I don't he was low or mid tv. Play who you will enjoy playing with. Undead are solid bash, while necro are much more hybrid, they can do more stuff but less focused. They do have a combination of bash and dash that I really like - they 2 are one of my favorites along with vampires.

    I would always take +AG on a wolf (or any other stat up other than AV) but not to ba ball carrier. With frenzy you will end up in bad spots a lot and the ability to dodge out and get into a safer place- hopefully behind a zombie or wight will be invaluable. It's also always nice to have AG4 on your Oh Crap What Have I Gotten Myself Into piece.

    I like 2 ghouls myself. I start with 2Golems,2 wights, 1 wolf, 1 ghoul and 3rrs. 2nd wulf asap,2nd ghoul when treasury and opponent's tv makes it practical.

    First ghoul goes block->sure hands, second goes wrackle. I don't play tv based matchmaking but if I did I could see avoiding the second ghoul. I do like it though,as someone else said it is really the only place for wrestle unless you do that on a wolf, which I wouldn't.

    That's about enough from my phone, maybe add more from a real pc later.
     
  11. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    I think +AG on a wolf is one of the best skill ups a necro team can roll. Being able to hand off to a wolf on a 1 lets you get 15 spaces on a single roll. It also allows for repositioning, dodging, and blitzing into areas you normally couldn't get to. Sometimes you really want to blitz a player with your wolf but the forced follow up will put you in contact with an opponent. With a +AG wolf that's not much of a problem, without it you might have to abandon going after that juicy wardancer!

    As for flesh golems, they are great players but they take FOREVER to level. A mummy will level quick because he's getting LOS 3 die hits at a minimum with MB. That's usually on unskilled linemen and many of them are AV7. Sure you need a double for block, but you level so fast if you fired on every non-double first skill you still might get block before a flesh golem!

    But a STR4 stand firm player is exactly what necro needs. Plus you have two more regen players and two less AV7 players on the necro side.

    I love both undead and necro, and undead are certainly easier to play effectively early on. Just play what seems like more fun!
     
  12. ManBearPig

    ManBearPig Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the input, and everyone certainly makes good points. I think I may play both, and switch my Munch team to undead while playing Necro in the BC2.
     
  13. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    As for Danton winning BC 12, he was still pretty mid TV if I recall - around 1800ish. Its actually quite hard to push undead up past 2000 as linemen are so cheap and won't be taking stat ups and Mummies are perfectly good with just a couple of skills. That's all good though, means you won;t be giving up wizards even to wounded agility teams and you'll have lots of bribes for your dp - plus you get access to nice stars.

    Makes me want to run undead again but I want to try Necro first.
     
  14. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Yea, I think I topped off just shy of 2300 at most with my undead team at its biggest, somewhere on 1800 is more standard.
     
  15. Ravers

    Ravers Well-Known Member

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    re Danton, it should also be said he won leagues here with Humans and Dark Elves. So I think its more a great coach than the actual team.

    to the original question, Necro are defined by the Were Wolves, amazing players but really need a double or two to meet their potential. They do add a movement threat and also have regen so to me they add a lot more than ghouls. The Flesh Golems are great too but a lot harder to skill up than Mummies due to lack of MB. Personally I don't like either team (UD for me just too slow), but if you do just go with whatever you feel most comfortable with.
     
  16. Zyrael

    Zyrael Active Member

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    If you are shooting for Altdwarf it's Necro. If you want to win more easily in T4 and T3 it's Undead.
     
  17. tys123

    tys123 Courier Staff

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    That's why in BB1 the Big Crunch has been won twice by undead and the best a necro team has finished is 3rd.
    They can both make it at high TV.
     
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  18. Jeliel

    Jeliel Well-Known Member

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    Coaching and a bit of luck can make a lot of difference as well!
     
  19. Tjorne

    Tjorne Member

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    On further consideration of the Flesh Golem vs. Mummy point:

    FG have more movement and more agility, so if you are lucky and like to take a little risk now and then they can score a TD easier than Mummies. Mummies on the other hand get more STR and MB from the start (which is a 3rd skill on a FG after Block and Guard normally) so they level faster without taking any special risks. So which one levels faster depends (among other things like opponent race) on your risk aversion. Apart from levelling, FG blocks are safer once they get the Block skill, but less deadly because of the lack of MB. They are much more roadblocks and less a direct threat than Mummies.


    @tys123 is right about the different roles of the Whights, of course. Necro Whights are not mainly blitzers, while Undead Whights are.


    Oh, and let's not forget: Werewolves are turnover machines before they get Block, just like other Frenzy players. In combination with too few RR saving skills on a starting roster, you will depend on luck a lot until you get a few levels on wolves, ghouls and FGs.
     
  20. TravelScrabble

    TravelScrabble Well-Known Member

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    Another thing to bear in mind is that Necro are VERY dependent on their key positionals especially wolves but also golems and to a lesser extent wights and ghouls. The point is, if you lose your developed wolves and a fleshie over the course of a rough season your team can go from heroes to zeroes in a very frustrating way and just like with lizards, leveling new golems in a clawed up high tv environment is very difficult. Undead are a bit more resilient.

    Not sure Danton ever won anything here with dark elves, but he did win the OCC and Ogham leagues and he may also have won OFL with skaven (though maybe he came up just short now that I think about it) so yes he's a great coach but undead certainly aren't hopeless.