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Cyanide Undead or Necromantic

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by hungrygnome, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Im trying to decide between the two for online play in a longer league. I understand Undead develops sooner, but, assuming similar amount of skills, which is the stronger of the 2 teams?

    Im just hesitant to use a team with 4 AV7 with no regen, though the 2 mummies make for some nice bashing.

    But Necro Golems develops so slowly compared to thier Undead Mummy counterparts.
     
  2. Captain Thorrek

    Captain Thorrek Member

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    It all depends on your play style: do you prefer to bash, or are more of a hybrid team coach? Both are a blast to run, so there's no bad answer. If you are more of a bashy coach, I'd go with Undead. Necro are faster, and the flesh golems frustrate opponents at times, due to Stand Firm.

    Ghouls are great, just don't leave them on their own. Keep them in tandem with your wights, so the two can play off each other's strengths. With no regen, I take the first one with doubles to get Pass, followed by Sure Hands... keeps him safe in the backfield. Maybe add block and kick to round things out (Accurate/Strong Arm for doubles).

    Golems may get skills slow, but they don't really need that many. Block, Guard, Tackle, and Mighty Blow would work for me... maybe Grab to get him in those "hard to reach" areas. :)

    Keep in mind I'm the odd one of the lot, though.;)
     
  3. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    I am more of a hybrid team, but in my plays with Necro, Ive had a hard time dealing with any team that can field 4+ STR 4 units. They smash even my golems. My first attempt in the leagues, I had to retire the team after 2 games after half the team had been injured with a stat loss, and a wolf and a golem killed... ( Orc and Dwarves - orcs beat the hell out of me )
     
  4. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Against a lot of Str you just put zombies to mark them and keep em busy... they run werewolves and ghouls around with a screen. If you need to bash you just send everyone to one side and gang on stronger ones with the wolves.

    Like they said above... necro is more hybrid and hard to deal initially. They depend on 2 star wolves and guard skill. They can bash... but only when a bit skilled up.

    Undead are less flexible but those 4 ghouls can make for a very wicked running game... full of dead ghouls of course during league.

    As for Flesh Golem... they just need 2 skills and they are perfect. Block and guard.

    Personally i´ve seen Undead Mummies be absolutely useless... or total killers. In a mobile game they seem lost. No wonder I prefer necro were you stars are Move 8. If you want a solid bash... go Undead.
     
  5. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    The other reason I lean towards Necro is I prefer to keep my players alive(ish). Id rather not have to constantly restart with fresh new ghouls. Maybe its just the teams ive played against then. Against developed bashy teams I dont seem to fare so well without any skillups.

    In my tabletop game, I have 2 wights with guard, 2 golems with block, and 2 wolfs with block, and they had an issue dealing with a Lizardman team with a full complement of Saurus. And the skinks just acted like a minefield. But I did manage to bash the amazons down to a 1-0 win.

    I like the Necro team, if I can just figure out how to survive the first few games.
     
  6. Juriel

    Juriel Active Member

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    Necro is troublesome to start (since it takes a few matches even get all positionals), and if you lose any of them during that time, oh boy, not fun times.

    Meanwhile, I've also played Undead, and I was bored out of my mind and hated every minute of it. But Necro are amusing me (plus, have more long-term potential).
     
  7. Narly Bird

    Narly Bird Well-Known Member

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    I would imagine most any team is amusing if you manage to roll +S on the two most important players in the team...
     
  8. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Ghouls die, but at least with four of them you can try to keep most of them fairly skilled. As long as not everyone dies at the same time.

    Necro need to skill up their wolves, who are in the end just one failed regeneration roll away from being as dead as a ghoul. In comparison every positional on the Undead team starts with everything they need. (Block, Dodge, MB ;))

    But Necro are said to be better at high TV - I wouldn't know, I'm just about learning how to play Undead fairly well, although I guess I have a necro team I could put into the next CC (that allows old teams, that is ;))
     
  9. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Ive been playing campaign mode, and decided to try Undead. Unholy Cow! Ive played 7 games with them so far. 2 halfling, 2 human, Chaos, Nurgle and Undead. I manage to have the ball more during THIER possesion than my own. Ive so far only lost to one of the human teams. Im using a combination of bashing while screening, then using the ghouls to pass/hand off to the wights most of the time to run the ball in. I have this odd level 3 zombie that my MVP keeps landing on though.. So far, only 1 ghoul dead, and that was in my 7th game. My ZOMBIE killed the beast of nurgle!! and a mummy killed a treeman.

    I cant believe the differance. Ive yet to play a really bashy team, but so far I think Undead it is.
     
  10. Fallowheart

    Fallowheart Active Member

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    I'm currently running a Necro team and recently played against the Undead team in my league for the second time.

    For my money Necro is the way to go. Undead seem to have the same kind of identity crisis that Norse have. They desperately want to be bashy, but only have a few players who can really lay down the hurt, while taking too much on their own chin (ghouls... the key to crippling an Undead team). Necro aren't stronger by any means, but they cause many more complex problems for opponents. They can outrun teams that are more bashy and bash teams that are less so. I'd say they are one of the best at playing the loose cage running game with a flexibility that only Dark Elves can beat. Undead have to play too conservative with their Ghouls to really capitalize in the same way, and they feel less open as a result.
     
  11. narg

    narg Member

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    Forget about it, playing against the computer doesn't prepare you at all to play against real humans.

    I play both and I like both. Here are the differences:
    - Long term, werewolves are better than ghouls, especially if they roll a double on a skill-up, but a rookie ghoul is better than a rookie werewolf as it already starts with dodge, and I think that frenzy without block or wrestle is more an inconvenient than an advantage so a rookie werewolf really sucks. A ghoul just needs one skill (block or wrestle) to do a good job so after 6 SPPs it's already a great player; for a good werewolf you'd want block, dodge and mighty blow. However the lack of access to claw for the undead is a real weakness.

    - Mummies are efficient as well right out of the box thanks to mighty blow, and it's quite easy to get them two assists to neutralize the fact that they don't have block. Thanks to that they skill up fairly fast which allows you to quickly have two guards on the pitch. Compared to that, the flesh golem is just ST4 and he takes forever to skill up, and as usually the first skill to give him is block it means that it'll take a very long time before he can have guard to help the rest of the team. A mummy can get her third skill before a golem gets his second - mighty blow really helps a lot to skill up.

    To summarize, the teams are very similar but the necros have a better blitzer (werewolf) and the undead have a better blocker (mummy).

    EDIT: ...and the undead win more, and in particular they tend to wipe out Necro teams according to FOL data: Stats up to Season 4. Makes sense as the mummies can easily take care of the golems while the claws, which are the huge advantage that necros have, don't do anything to ghouls.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2012
  12. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Yea, playing Undead as a bash team only works against elves, and not all the time. The rest of the time Undead are a running team with easy access to a couple of fairly good screeners (the Mummies) and some speed.

    Necro were meant to replace Undead in the running departmen (while Khemri were meant to take over the "relentless plodding" playstyle) so the teams do play fairly similarly.
     
  13. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    Im actually preferring the Undead style now that ive played them though a few games. ( Yes against a computer, but its more about learning MY playstyle )

    I prefering the mummies because I can use them OFFENSIVELY much easier, rather than the Golems which are primarily defensive.

    Im using the wights and ghouls in a loose screen and setting up a run, a short pass, then a handoff. Actually managed a turn 2 TD after I kicked off twice.

    So Undead it is then!
     
  14. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Players are more capable of isolating the mummies with disposable zombies than the AI is... Mummies can be just about useless when conditions are wrong...

    Agree with Fallow and Narg... good analysis of team strengths.

    If you'll play undead working those ghouls together like Dreamy does makes for a great team play. But once the ghouls start going down... the same happens to Necro that with a wolf down get in trouble... but its easier to protect the wolves.
     
  15. hungrygnome

    hungrygnome Member

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    the AI does try, i just try to keep at least one other unit nearby that can throw the block INSTEAD of the mummy if i need him to move somewhere, otherwise, Ill throw a blitz with him, and after downing the marker, move to mark something else.

    The ghouls i try to keep out of too much contact until they get block.. Had one that rolled +STR for his second skill, so I had a 4 STR blodge ghoul. real nice suprise.

    Im finding wrestle to be useful on my zombies that i use for marker and line fodder. Im not planning on moving them much anyways. Only time i see it being a major downfall is if someone is willing to foul my zombies.. even though they are cheap, I still dont want to have to replace them constantly.. I manage to get some SPP on them through casualties by arranging to bash JUST right.. depends on the team. Use the zombies and a mummy, throw a 2die block with the zombie, which frees the mummy to mark something for next turn or to blitz.

    Im not too keen on putting wrestle on a werewolf. expensive piece that I want to keep around. Putting him on the ground on purpose, waiting for a foul, seems like it could end up bad eventually.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2012
  16. Fallowheart

    Fallowheart Active Member

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    If you are enjoying Undead, then that's what really matters. :)

    I like block on my zombies first. The reason being is block puts them in a position to cause a turnover with a non-block big bad guy (most 5ST players require a double roll for block since they don't have general access). Yeah, throw wrestle on one or two, but block has a great use for marking up those nasty big guys that don't have block. Then put the right zombie marker on his big bad and counter to his skill set.
    Another thing to keep in mind, if you are committing two pieces to freeing up your mummy, your opponent has a free piece somewhere. Look to get Break Tackle as soon as possible for easy dodges away from chump lineman of your opponent. That puts your Mummies exactly where you need them and avoids this problem.
     
  17. Lebe666

    Lebe666 Well-Known Member

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    Also... start playing human beings... AI is weaker than a demented granny.
     
  18. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    While it is good to know that option play exists, it is still only 30% likely to succeed by itself. If you have a team reroll then spending that on the first failure gives you a total of 60% to succeed (and a 40% chance of having spent a reroll just to leave the ball on the ground somewhere)

    So even if it should be fairly risk-free with a good screen, it is not anything to suggest against elves or skaven, teams that when human-led can steal balls on the ground and run them to your endzone..

    But even so, it is a good option and it makes for a surprisingly mobile game.

    Still, if you really want to play that way you should look into aforementioned elves or skaven.. they often get a skill reroll in somewhere, and do plenty on AG 4 with 2+ rolls instead of 3+ rolls.. much more straightforward ;)