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Elf vs Undead (How to Handle Mummies?)

Discussion in 'League and Team Development Tactics' started by Geoffv, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    I'm looking for some advise on how to handle the Undead.
    Our league has an Undead team which is doing very well, and is pretty much clobbering anything that stands in it's way.

    My Pro elf team is getting a bit scared at the idea of facing them, especially his str 6 mummy.

    Any general tactic on how to beat an undead team with elfs, and still have a team left at the end of the match?
     
  2. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    The basic idea is to try and remove them from the play. It is a hard decision because you have all that armor 7, so tagging them is a frightening prospect. Here are a few small ideas for different situations you may get into.

    1) If he is caging with them in the front of the cage: Block the advance of the cage in front of it standing one square from the cage. Basically, read Coach's article on cage breaking. While the undead have relatively fast players (ghouls) who can attempt to run around your defense, that essentially leaves the mummies in the dust. Few players will be patient enough to cage slowly through your cage slowing tactics.

    2) If he puts the mummies on the backside of the cage, tag them up with a player on the back side of the cage. This means that they cannot advance with the cage (unless they dodge with break tackle). If they hit and follow up, they are moving backwards. You have to be careful as they do have mighty blow, but if you put a dodge player on them that is only a 30.5% chance that they knock him over (ignoring :bothdown: which would turn over)

    3) You have some side-steppers. If they have blodge, it can be quite effective to tag a cage in such a way that you can side-step next to the ball carrier should they not knock you down (which is probable). It's always risky to tag up a mighty blow player, but who wants to live forever?

    4) The best situation is that your cheap hard to knock down player tags their expensive cornerstone of the drive player such that they are not doing much good. At that point, you are playing slow humans (albeit smelly regenerating ones).

    My two cents.
     
  3. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    Good advice above. The only thing I would disagree is the bit about tagging Mummies.

    Tagging a Mighty Blow piece that does not need assists to 2D block you while your own marking piece is AV7 is not a very good idea IMHO. It is going to hurt. A lot.

    I would not do it unless it is required for a critical action like securing your TD or cancelling an assist that allows you to 1D or 2D blitz the ball carrier. Otherwise my advice about what to do in general with the Mummies is to simply stay away from them whenever possible.

    Can you please post both rosters so to have a better idea?

    Undead is always a very tough match up for any race, no matter how you look at it. They have the strength and they have the speed (ghouls), so be prepared for a challenge.

    In general, my own way to play with elves against Undead does not differ much from previous advice I ve posted here on how to play classic elf defense in general: use a stalling line defense one tile away from their cage and withdraw one row at a time while not being in contact with it. In paralel with these line defense I d also recommend blitzing a cage corner with one of your blitzers and mark the carrier at every opportunity (every turn if possible) so you force him to either risk a dodge/hand off or you make him blitz your blitzer (instead of your line so he can not progress to far that turn). If possible choose a cage corner occupied by an AV7 skelly (reducing opponent numbers also goes a long way to significantly improve elf chances in general). Other than that the rest of your team should avoid staying in contact and should dodge out of TZ so you only leave him his blitz to hit you.

    The main goal with this tactic is to deny him the TD in his own drive... (if you can score defensively there it is a plus). Here a link at a post and replay where I show an example on how to do this:

    http://bbtactics.com/forums/elves-open-league-t420/page7/#post4767 (the replay is at the bottom of my post)

    The thing to watch out for is the moment where their carrier (usually one of the ghouls, with MA7) gets to scoring range, as this is when he can make a run for it. It is in this moment where the stalling line is most critical so you need to place it in a way that forces him to at least do one or 2 dodges, plus maybe 1 GFI etc. And that is why marking the carrier with a blitzer (if oyu have one with tackle or diving tackle even better) is so important, as this would typically prevent him from blitzing your line in order to facilitate the ghoul TD.

    At start I would aim also to kick first so I can defend with a full team. This maximizes the size of my stalling line.

    In attack, review what is the score at that moment, the remaning turns and decide what is the best timing to score. Maybe you decide it is better to stall a bit to make sure your opponent will not be able to score in the remaining turns of that drive etc. If that is the case then stretching your opponent thin is generally the way to go. See comments and replay example in this post below, the comments above it and the replay there for a description:

    http://bbtactics.com/forums/elves-open-league-t420/page8/#post4901
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  4. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    Thanks guys,

    Two very different oppinions here:

    Try to mark the mummies out of the game, or just stay the hell away from them.

    My insticnt is to try to keep his mummies away from the action by giving them linemen to chew on, but I expect I'll run out of players quick, and I'm not sure I want to put my Blizters in their way.

    I almost always kick if given the opportunity, so I can defend with a full team, and get more chances of recovering KO before the second half.

    I was asked for a team roster, so here it is, or as close as I can recall. I also have 160k in the bank, and trying to figure out how to spend that without giving him too much inducements. Thinking another re-roll, or buy a 12th player and live with the inducements.

    Pro Elves TV 1560
    2 x blitzers Block,Dodge,Sidestep,Tackle
    Catcher: +1 STR, Guard, Block
    Catcher: Pass-block, Dodge
    Catcher: Dodge
    Thrower: Accurate
    2 x Lineman: Wrestle
    Lineman: Kick
    Lineman: Guard
    Lineman: Block, Mighty Blow
    3 rerolls

    Undead TV1550
    Mummy: +1 STR
    Mummy: Gaurd
    Wight: Block, Tackle
    Wight: Block, sure hands(?)
    Ghoul: Block, Dodge, Sidestep
    Ghoul: Block, Dodge
    Ghoul: Dodge, sidestep
    Ghoul: Dodge
    2 Skeletons
    3 Zombies
    2 rerolls
     
  5. RogueThirteen

    RogueThirteen Member

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    As elves, you have the luxury of avoiding the mummies. With only 2+ dodges to get away. And, with their low movement, you can probably even keep them from blitzing you very often without at least having to risk a GFI or two.

    Marking the mummies is a bad idea, unless it's absolutely essential to your play that they be out of the equation next turn. But with your quick passing game, you shouldn't have to worry about them while you're on offense.

    On defense, focus on the ghouls and zombies and just try to stay away.
     
  6. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    Not to be contentious, but the chances of a 2 dice block on a mummy (without block) knocking over and breaking armor on a player with dodge and 7 armor (elves should have at least a few of those in short order) is approximately 17.8% (ignoring :bothdown: turnover results). For perspective, the odds of failing a 2+ dodge are about 16.7%. While the latter has a reroll to improve its reliability, you can expect to be doing a lot of it if you try to leave all of your players unmarked at the end of a drive.

    Cage stalling tactics typically work to stall well. Being able to advance only one square per turn is sufficient until the other team gets close to the end zone. At that point, there is a good chance they are going to be able to open up a hole somehow - be it with a blitz or through the combined effects of attrition on your elves being squishier than your opponent.

    I think a fairly common (and effective) elf defense is to start off not marking the opposing team until the drive gets closer to the end zone - at which point it becomes necessary to be more aggressive (which is also more reckless with regards to marking up). At some point you are going to spend a turn or two going base to base with your opponent on defense.
     
  7. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    Now, I like to think I have made a case that some base to base contact is going to be inevitable - perhaps 1 to 2 turns worth when you step up the pressure as the ball gets near the end zone. That said, perhaps it's more the usual rubbish coming out of my mouth - but for the sake of argument, let's take it as a given.

    Without the mummies pushing the way, the undead are kind of like slow humans with less block and guard. If you can take the mummies out of the equation for a turn or two by distracting them with elf snacks - it can get a lot easier to get to the soft, chewy center of their defense.

    A lot of undead coaches in this situation (well at least in my experience) leave the mummies behind and start playing the undead a bit more like elves by trying to out flank your defense with loose screens. If you are cautious and leave some defense back, you can essentially split up the undead offense.

    If I am playing a less experienced coach, I will be more inclined to pressure early. If I am playing a more experienced coach, I will be more likely to stall and then pressure later. That said, If they form a weak cage, I am not going to just stand one square out and give them another turn to fix it - I am going to bring some bodies in to try and exploit it.

    I may describe/execute some strategies that other people consider a bit reckless. I am more inclined to throw my elves into danger than most. That said, you can often break a cage offense by using the current turn to eliminate their ability to form a good defense to protect what you will do on your next turn. That two turn punch means a turn or two of pain for the elves, but I contend you have it coming anyways.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  8. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    Actually If we are assuming that the Elf players have dodge, then the chances of failing a 2+ dodge with a re-roll is 1 in 36, or 2.8%
    The mummies also only need one assist to get 3 Dice blocks which ups the odds of a smack down.

    I don't have any linemen with Dodge, so am more vulnerable for both dodging away and for marking.
     
  9. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    I'm assuming a couple of them have dodge. Usually when I play a team that dodges all of their players out of tackle zones, they end up using a lot of rerolls on failed dodges and have a few turns end at inconvenient times. The chances of failure are low, but when you roll a ton of dice it is going to happen and possibly at a really inconvenient time.

    Not to nitpick, but it takes 2 assists for a 5 STR player to get a 3 dice block on a 3 strength player.

    It's a good first skill for linemen. I usually take either dodge or wrestle as the first skill on mine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  10. Strobinator

    Strobinator Member

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    All that said, the other guys are giving great advice. I do not want to come across as argumentative. Suffice it to say I have reasons for doing it the way I do it and it and the results are not typically disastrous.
     
  11. Viajero

    Viajero Active Member

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    LOL! That is what we all say! :D

    Do not need to worry about coming across argumentative or not (you do not btw) I guess this kind of debate is precisely what the OP needs to form his own opinion!

    At heart I think we all agree for the most part that marking constantly the Mummies is probably unnecessary/dangerous but at the same time marking them may be of crucial help in some critical moments. Like when you are about to score and marking a mummy helps preventing your opponent blitz or reduces it from 2D to 1D (better screen than mark if at all possible though). Or in other ocassions, as you say, when you are in defense and the opponent team closes in your TD zone you may need to mark mummies to disrupt the cage further or limit your opponent opportunities to make a hole in your line. Etc etc .

    Another example would be when a proper kick place the ball far and you decide to move deep with 3 or 4 players so to screen the ghoul who may be picking it up from the rest of his team at the center... then marking some mummies or wights may be a good idea so to isolate further your prey etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  12. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    All good

    I thought 3 dice was for double not more than double, I rarely play teams with 6 str dudes, so no expert.

    Yes dodge is great on line-elves I agree, and opens that tactic of dodging away from the LOS. I happened to take wrestle on mine, and so Only have dodge on my catchers and blizters.

    Playing in the next 30 minutes, so we will see how I go.

    Thanks all for the advise.
     
  13. biLLy

    biLLy Member

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    While I know you have played your game and it is already too late (or not, maybe you won and then nvm), I would like to add a simple a very aspect to deal with mummies and other big guys: fouling.

    I agree that usually a good tactic is to stall the cage from advance, keeping all your units out of contact, and those turns that you are just slowling the advance are the ones I usually try to foul mummies.

    My usual way to proceed is to place 2 lines in front the cage to stop it, maybe 3, and the rest being dedicated in knocking down 1 of their big guys. If you are lucky enough, you will get a :pow: or :powdodge:, so place the mummy near assitances for a future foul. Then select a LM not moved and proceed, if you have 3 assists, you will only have to roll 7+, which is a pretty aceptable chance.

    Ive seen many times that enemies coach are usually too worried about continuosly keeping their big guys in contact with your elfs (just to force you dodging), and they just dont see it coming.

    Last time in Nagg that I fought an undead with my woodies I managed to foul 1 mummy for a inj (even the LM got ejected, but I accept the change!!) and my tree ko'ed the other mummy.. And yeah, I won that match, which wasnt so hard than with the mummies.

    So, resuming, I would take the risk any time that any of your LM (40k worth or 60 with 1 skill) foul and get the chance of getting rid of 1 mummy, even more if you have 2 players in your bench waiting.

    Cheers.
     
  14. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

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    Far too much emphasis has been put on the mummies. I would try to get his gouls off the pitch as they are the only ones who reliably handle and move the ball. They are also AV7 with no access to an apoth. Mummies are better off avoided than fed.

    My main team is a woodelf team with 2 MB players (not including the tree, who hits whoever is infront). When I play bash heavy teams I tend to avoid fighting with the strong and tough players and instead pick on the smaller players. So with Chaos I smash beastmen, Lizards I play whack a skink (and a MB, tackle Wardancer will win that game every time).

    Orcs and dwarves are the harder ones to pick apart ones as they are all tough. Even those teams have throwers, goblins and slayers though. Normally if they are strength 4 or blodging then I try to injure an easier target. So with undead I will be ignoring the mummies. If he wants to waste a blitz on a mv3 player without block to try and hit a blodger turn after turn thats ok. I'm guessing the game will go my way if thats the plan.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  15. Gallows Bait

    Gallows Bait Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm inclined to agree - against undead pick on ghouls and skeletons. If you're nervous of your AV7, think how nervous they are about theirs too.
     
  16. Starks

    Starks New Member

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    Well, I know that is not the most adequate thread but as is treats also about an elfe team that will struggle against a undead team I didn't find it necessary to open a new one.

    The team is a Darkies team. It has only one tacle blitzer one blodger blitzer one blodger Witch et one simple blitzer. It has also an assassin.

    It will meet an undead team with 3 blodge Gouls et only one tacle ghost.

    The witch and the simpe blitzer has both rooled a single level up.

    What do they take?
    Tacle/doge?
    side step/doge?
    side step/tacle
    Tacle/tacle?

    I know that is all about building the goul chasing team or the best stalling team and that the play style will impose the choice. But what would you take?

    If i win this one i will be facing hybrid roosters like DE HE necro and woodies maybe
     
  17. coachman

    coachman Well-Known Member

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    Darkelves...

    You look like your league has a lot of dodge so I'd take tackle on your blitzer. If your witch already has block or wrestle then take sidestep. It allows her to push people off the pitch and safely play the sidelines. This will be more improtant when you play other frenzy teams.
     
  18. Geoffv

    Geoffv New Member

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    Hi All, took me a while to get back to this thread, for those intereseted in the results of my game I kinda just ignored the Mummies and blitzed his ghouls every chance I got. The mummies reliably knocked my linemen down, but didn't break armour that often.

    Score line was 2-2 in the end, thanks to a ridiculous play by the undead in turn 16, where he picked up the ball in tackle zones, made 3 dodges through tackle zones, passed to a skeleton, who pushed it to score the equalizer, all of this without using a re-roll.

    Thanks for the advise, I no longer fear Mummies, it's the wights you've gotta look out for, and the Ghouls you've got to shut down.