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Rules Woodlands Team

Discussion in 'General Blood Bowl News and Discussion' started by MalicWanderer, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. MalicWanderer

    MalicWanderer Active Member

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    This is a custom roster I've been fiddling with for a while now, thought I would share and see what people think. I'm sure it's probably not very good, but I think I've reached the point where it's not getting any better if I'm the only one looking at it. :)

    Code:
    Qty    Title     Cost      MA   ST   AG   AV   Skills                             Normal  Double
    0-12   Pixies    40,000    6    1    3    6    Dodge, Right Stuff, Sure Feet,         A    GSP
                                                   Stunty, Titchy
    0-4    Dryads    60,000    6    3    3    8    Strong Arm, Thick Skull               GP    AS
    0-2    Harpies   60,000    6    3    3    7    Leap, Very Long Legs                  GA    SP
    0-2    Nyads     90,000    6    3    3    7    Big Hand, Extra Arms, Side Step       GA    SP
    0-2    Unicorns  90,000    6    3    4    7    Horns, No Hands, Sprint, Sure Feet    GAS    P
    0-1    Treeman   120,000   2    6    1    10   Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm,        S    GAP
                                                   Strong Arm, Take Root, Thick Skull, 
                                                   Throw Team-Mate
                                       
    0-8    Rerolls    60,000

    The main goal of the team is really just to get Unicorns on the pitch, because I love them. ^^

    More seriously tho, I wanted something with a decent nature/mythical theme, and some specialization. Sort of a wood elf lite type feel. The team is fast without having high movement due to lots of sure feet, plus ubiquotus agility access but only two AG 4 pieces, who can't touch the ball. A couple leapers and some titchies also increases their overall manueverability without just being faster/more agile. While the *yads focus on moving the ball around.

    I should note that while I did my best to cost them what I felt was right, the only ones I'm really sure about at all is the Harpies.

    More thoughts on the individual positions:
    Pixies: I debated for a long time whether I wanted the pixies to be 0-12 linetitchies or 0-4 positional titchies, and I'm still not totally convinced which I prefer. But for now I'm going with linetitchies, partially because they're the cheapest piece on the team and partially because I wanted to make the Dryads a bit more specialized (more on that later.)
    I gave them Sure Feet partially to gel with the Unicorns, and partially as a thematic nod to the idea that they're actually flying slightly above the ground rather than running, so in theory they should trip less.
    My main concern with them is that they might be overpriced at twice the cost of a snotling for an extra point of movement and armor, that still leaves them average speed and halfling durability, or that sure feet just isn't a good enough replacement for SS on a ST 1 piece.
    If I was going to change them, other than adjusting the price, I'd probably either just give them side step and accept that they're just better snotlings, or give them jump up, either instead of or in addition to sure feet.

    Dryads: If the pixies aren't the linepiece, these guys would be the other choice. I expect they'd probably fill the role of line fodder on a lot of teams anyway, since they're the most durable piece on the team with AV8 and Thick Skull. Thematically I wanted to try and make them mini treemen of a sort, which is where thick skull came from. That's also the main reason for giving them Strong Arm. Once they had that, it only made sense to make them the team's throwers and give them P access. It's a bit weird to have the thrower role and the punching bag role filled by the same position, but I don't think it's terrible. Especially on an 0-4, since you really only need one thrower and three punching bags, spares notwithstanding.
    I realize Strong Arm is maybe a bit strong as a starting skill, but since they're AG 3 and don't start with Pass I think it's probably ok. As is they're slightly better at out of the box passing than an unskilled elf, but worse than pretty much any proper thrower except Khemri's. They will eventually outpace other AG 3 throwers who don't roll a doubles, and they're basically equivelant to an elf thrower once they get Pass, until the elf rolls doubles and gets Strong Arm, then they need +AG to catch up, which is significantly harder to roll. So overall I'd say long-term potential wise they're somewhere in between normal AG 3 and AG 4 throwers.
    If I was gonna change them I'd probably take away either Strong Arm or P access, maybe both, and put them back in the lineman slot. Possibly combined with a buff to the now 0-4 pixies. Alternatively, if they just needed a slight nerf I might make them MA 5.

    Harpies: There's not really a ton to say about the harpies, they're Slaan linemen with A access and one less armor, except thematically they're "leaping" with their wings rather than their legs. Mostly they just fit into the team by being another specialized psuedo-agility piece with weird mobility. 3+ Leap means they can get into and out of nasty places, so you could probably build them into pretty great ball hawks. VLL gives them elf-level interception powers, so if you wanted you could also go Catch and Pass Block. Get them +AG or NoS and they'd be pretty good recievers, too, able to catch it anywhere and then leap out.
    If it turned out the team was just too squishy I'd give them one more armor for not having real AG 4. Otherwise if they needed a slight buff I'd probably go for sure feet, matches the team and fits with the wings well enough.

    Nyads: These are the catchers and/or ball carriers of the team. Extra Arms is yet another psuedo-agi skill, while Big Hand continues the "we don't care about your tackle zones" trend set by the Pixies and the Harpies. Both fit the theme of being a semi-amorphous water spirit, able to change their shape as needed to get hold of the ball. Side Step is meant to represent them flowing around the oppositions attempts to punch them, while also adding to the teams maneuverability theme.
    The main change I can see making to these guys is either swapping SS for Foul Appearance and/or Dodge, or maybe just giving them Dodge. In any of those cases the main idea would be to try and increase their survivability while keeping with the flowing, hard to hit/pin down water theme. I'd also consider giving them Regen, for the same reason as the AV buff on the Harpies. If they turned out to be too good, I'd probably swap Big Hand for Sure Hands, same thematic logic and combined with EA still pretty decent at helping steal the ball, but not as powerful at it. I'm not as fond of it tho since it pushes them even more towards being the primary ball carrier, which takes some of the oomph of the thrower dryads away. What I'd rather do if they need a nerf is drop them to ST 2, since that would make running them into the opposition to actually use Big Hand riskier to their health, being only MA 6 and thus limited in how far they can run away afterwards, and also being physically weak fits with the pieces theme.

    Unicorns: These guys are definitely the stars of the team, as well as my original reason for wanting to make it. They're obviously modelled after bull centaurs, being another quadruped piece, except for being much more agile. They're also sort of extra fast psuedo-vampires, with AG 4 and ST 4 blitzes, as well as GAS access. No Hands should be pretty obvious here, thematically.
    Ultimately they're the blitzers of the team, having the only S access and also the aforementioned ST 4 blitzes. They're a little unreliable out of the box, since no block and easy to counter block due to not having real ST 4. AV 7 also makes them fragile for a blitzer, and they're hard to level since you can't feed them SPP in any reliable way. But manage to keep them around and in a couple levels you'll have a really fantastic piece. They're easy to build as either support blitzers with Blodgestep Guard or killers with (PO)MB & Tackle.
    In addition to being thematically appropriate, No Hands is an important nega trait for them, since it lets them have those vamp-esque Stats&Access + extra speed without being too powerful. And it fits the psuedo agility theme, in that they're the only real AG 4 piece on the team but they can't actually do anything with it but dodge.
    My main concern with them is either that they're not quite powerful enough out of the box to warrant the No Hands penalty, in which case I'd give them either ST 4, Block, or Dodge, depending on the level of buff needed, or that they're too squishy to be effective blitzers/ever develop, in which case I'd give them AV 8 and/or Regen.

    Treeman: Not much to say here really, what would a Woodlands team be without a Tree? Also, what's the point of having titchy pieces if you can't throw them? It is worth noting though that the Pixies would be the best Right Stuff piece for the 1TTD TTM play, so if there's any reason to nerf them that might be it.
    He also serves the same basic purpose as on the Wood Elf team, Strength & Armor on a team without much of either. Tho these guys aren't quite as fragile or strengthless as welfs, so honestly I think he'd probably be used more for the one turner potential than anything else. Like most big guys you could probably pass on him and not be much, if any, worse off.

    So, that's my Woodlands Team. They're a nature themed team with a focus on specialized psuedo-agility pieces and moving both themselves and the ball around via means other than raw MA and AG.

    Let me know what you think.
     
  2. Nikolai II

    Nikolai II Super Moderator Moderator

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    Qty Title Cost MA ST AG AV Skills Normal Double
    0-12 Pixies 40,000 6 1 3 6 Dodge, Right Stuff, Sure Feet, A GSP
    Stunty, Titchy
    0-4 Dryads 60,000 6 3 3 8 Strong Arm, Thick Skull GP AS
    0-2 Harpies 60,000 6 3 3 7 Leap, Very Long Legs GA SP
    0-2 Nyads 90,000 6 3 3 7 Big Hand, Extra Arms, Side Step GA SP
    0-2 Unicorns 90,000 6 3 4 7 Horns, No Hands, Sprint, Sure Feet GAS P
    0-1 Treeman 120,000 2 6 1 10

    Ok, I'll look mostly at pricing as according to the design document, and then maybe at something more.

    Pixies: Are correctly set up. I could see "Sneaky git" being a more natural fit for them though, but sure feet makes them hyper at the oneturning.

    Dryads: Should cost 80k. 70k if you use your "rebate" option here because Strong Arm ain't that good really. Could go as low as 60k if we use the rebate and also admit that Strong Arm ain't really better than the skill "pass". So I guess they can pass muster as is too.

    Harpies: Should cost 40k. Give them move 7 and they'll be back at 60k, and it supports your "speed rules" theme as well.

    Naiads: Are correctly set up.

    Unicorns: Should cost 100k, although I guess "No hands" could well be worth -10k since it's such a horrible skill. Could even argue that they should get "stab" for free as well in exchange since "no hands" on top of AG4 is an extra punch in the face.

    Treeman: Is a treeman.

    Also, if you want to give the Unicorns ST4 they'd have to drop the AG4 (only Vampires are allowed to begin with both, and they have their own problems)
    Then they'd be
    0-2 Unicorns 120,000 6 4 3 7 Horns, No Hands, Sprint, Sure Feet GAS P
    (No hands still giving an adjustment, but adding "stab" would make them 130k in this case)

    -

    Other than that, you might want to drop it to two Dryads. As is these guys are like orcs in that they can field zero linemen if they want to.
    On the other hand, pixies ain't very good and perhaps we should give them an option of not having any of them.
    Oh, right, if you want Pixies to be even greater at oneturning you could actually make them cost 20k and have Mv 7, by dropping AV to 5 and getting rid of sure feet. :D
     
  3. MalicWanderer

    MalicWanderer Active Member

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    Wow, I'm surprised the first reply wasn't bemoaning how horrible/fantastic they were. Guess I did a better job than I'd thought. ^^

    I think starting the Pixies with Sneaky Git would just give even more reason not to field them, since it's not actually that good a skill. Although I suppose if they all had it you could just foul every single turn and not even care. But that's not really the direction I want for the team so. I also probably wouldn't swap the SF for higher movement, just because while Sure Feet definitely helps the TTM play it at least doesn't increase how far away the end zone they can land. I like that they're good at the TTM play, fits the overall idea of non-standard mobility, but I wouldn't want to make them too good at it.

    I could see bumping the Dryads up to 70k, but not 80. I just can't accept Strong Arm + Thick Skull being more expensive than Sure Hands + Pass on the otherwise identical Human Thrower.

    Definitly don't want to drop the Harpies to Pixie price, that just wouldn't be right. But I think I'd buff their AV before their MA. The team likes being able to run around but it's really focused on pulling that off through means other than just having players with high MA. I guess it wouldn't hurt much to have a couple MA7 pieces on the pitch, but at the same time the ubiquotous AV7, without elf agility to keep away or Norse/Zon defensive skills is going to be a problem for them, so I think having a couple more AV8 pieces would be good.

    I thought if anyone was going to be underpriced it would be the Naiads, honestly. Big Hand just seems like such a good skill. But ok.

    I think No Hands is probably worth the -10k, but I also kind of want to buff these guys survivability and wouldn't mind raising their price to do it. Can't decide if I prefer AV8 or Regen (or both?) and don't really know which is worth more. Mostly I think it comes down to whether you want to keep them on the pitch more or keep them alive more. But ya, I worry an AV7 Blitzer without block isn't going to live very long. After all, 2/3s of the other AV7 blitzers in the game start with Blodge.

    They're actually more like Humans, in that they can field 11 players without any Linos, as opposed to Orcs who can manage as many as 15 if they really want to. Of course, Humans do it by fielding a bunch of ST 2, where as here you're doing to avoid the ST 1 pieces.
    I've been waffling back and forth on whether this is a problem. On the one hand, I'd like to see pixies on every team, but on the other hand they are a liability, and since you can't have any spares without them and the team is mostly AV7, it seems like they'd still pop up, even if not in the starting lineup.
    Also, the only real way to "fix" it would be to drop the Dryads to 0-2, or I guess ditch the Harpies entirely but I'm not super fond of that option. I worry about that tho, since they're the only AV8 on the team and you have to put three guys on the LoS. Like what do you even put there if you only have two dryads? Both of them and a pixie/the tree? Then you don't get to make one of them your thrower. Could put just one of them, or neither, but then you have to put the other pieces there instead. No one wants important AV7 pieces on the line, so it'd probably be the pixies, and honestly what's the point of even having titchy pieces if you're just going to put them on the line to die turn 1?
    Maybe if I went ahead and buffed the AV on the harpies and/or gave the Unicorns that survivability buff it would work better.

    Anyway, thanks for the feedback. :)
     
  4. MalicWanderer

    MalicWanderer Active Member

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    I've discovered the post on the cyanide forums with Galak's updated guidelines, and after reading them over and fiddling a bit I've arrived at a new lineup for the roster:
    Code:
    Qty    Title     Cost      MA   ST   AG   AV   Skills                             Normal  Double
    0-12   Pixies    40,000    6    1    3    6    Dodge, Right Stuff, Sure Feet,         A    GSP
                                                   Stunty, Titchy
    0-2    Harpies   60,000    6    3    3    8    Leap, Very Long Legs                  GA    SP
    0-2    Dryads    70,000    6    3    3    8    Strong Arm, Thick Skull               GP    AS
    0-2    Naiads    90,000    6    3    3    7    Big Hand, Extra Arms, Side Step       GA    SP
    0-2    Unicorns  110,000   6    3    4    7    Horns, No Hands, Regeneration         GAS    P
                                                   Sprint, Sure Feet
    0-1    Treeman   120,000   2    6    1    10   Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm,        S    GAP
                                                   Strong Arm, Take Root, Thick Skull,
                                                   Throw Team-Mate
                                  
    0-8    Rerolls    60,000
    I've buffed the Harpies to AV 8, dropped the Dryads to 0-2, and bumped the Unicorns up to 110k while giving them Regen.

    With that I'm pretty much happy with them, sans any actual playtesting. Although I am still slightly unsure about the Dryads, I could see putting them back to 0-4 and I could also see making them 60k again, tho probably not both. The formula wants them to be 80k, but it also wants that of the human and skaven throwers, so I feel like if I'm going to have a discount the Dryad is the place to do so.

    I've also thought about Star Players a bit, figure they ought to get Deeproot, Willow, Zara, and Morg. Also tentatively the new Star Player, Lady Amalthea: 340k 7 4 4 8 Loner, Block, Dodge, Horns, No Hands, Regeneration, Sprint, Sure Feet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
  5. Jav

    Jav Active Member

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    The Unicorns just seem soooo good. But I guess no hands and AV7 is a reasonable balance to that. I think you've at least got a roster worth play testing at this point, nice job.
     
  6. Khornight

    Khornight Active Member

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    I like the lineup... but I think the pixies could be st2... st1 means being 3 diced by 90% of the population, even with dodge that's not great especially for an av6 40k peice!