Chaos Minotaur query

[Barninho]

Hi everyone.

Currently building a Chaos Team and this one is shaping up to be one of my better ones. So far in development I have a Chaos Warrior with Block, Mighty Blow and +ST for example and a Beastman with +AG, Block for example, but I have a feeling the star player is going to be my Minotaur who has Block and Break Tackle and just leveled up.

I have been aiming to develop him into a mobile killing machine basically who I can use to blitz surgically rather than just lumping on the LOS. Break Tackle would have been my first choice if I hadn't rolled for block. Then I was going to plump for Claw but Break Tackle got moved further down the order.

So far so good, but I rolled a double 5, which is possibly the only roll of the dice which could have given me pause for thought.

I therefore have a choice of +MV, +AV, any of the doubles, or a more usual skill like Claw. I'm honestly not sure what to take but I'm torn between the following.

+AV - Obviously Minotaurs tend to get fouled so this is a tempting option. Having said that with Block he spends a lot of the game on his feet.

+MV - Would help in getting that extra square to hit people.

Pro - More reliability.

Jump Up - Again helps in getting to targets in situations where you could have been left behind.

Claw - Helps to cause casualties, which after all, is going to be the major way of him getting SPP's, although he does have one TD after getting the ball when the opponent kicked it straight out. Seems like a waste after getting the double roll though.

Genuinely torn and have to decide what to go with by tomorrow when I have a game. Obviously it's going to be a long time till he levels up and he's going to be a pain-in-the-arse for opponents whatever I pick, but this guy feels almost perfect so far and I'd hate to go in the wrong direction, so I thought I'd ask the experts.

Currently leaning toward Pro or +AV the most, but not sure which is going to be the biggest advantage to my big guy.

What do you reckon?

 

[Coach]

I would take Pro, will get you a lot more actions and also help against turnovers.

Jump Up would be a waste and I wouldn't consider it. Claw would also be a waste of rolling double five when you can get it next skill regardless of what you roll.

I could see an argument for movement, though I would rather get Pro, the armour would be nice but not instead of either of these two.

 

[Barninho]

Thanks Coach. I will absolutely take Pro. That and +AV were the two I was really keen on but I'd always take Block ahead of Pro on a big-guy double so I had no idea how useful it would be. This will be my first big guy with Pro.

Thanks a lot for the help. I'll let you know how he gets on.

 

[Smiler6310]

Odds are its too late to change your mind but I would have recommended dodge. Don't get me wrong Pro is an excellent 2nd double roll choice but dodge would make your Av8 big guy into a S5 Blodger who would be pretty ninja to take down!

Either way good luck with him!

 

[maxcarrion]

I’m also going to throw my hat at dodge. Not only does it make you a real SOB to take down being a s5 blodger but it also partners nicely with break tackle to create some possible hilarity. Any player that can dodge into a cage on 4+ with a reroll then frenzy down the ball carrier with s5 blocking (so all you need is to cancel all but 1 of their assists for 2D blocks), I’d then go after tentacles with my next skill, with dodge and break tackle you can get really creative with where to put your S5 tentacles and with block and dodge it’s real hard to get rid of them again. Throw in Stand Firm as the 5th skill and watch poor agility teams cry that they can’t get away and strength teams cry that they can’t keep you out.

 

[Acipenser]

It really depends on the role of the mino. If you have a killer, then Pro is better to make him reliable at that. If he's a roadblock, then Dodge would be better. I concur with the reasoning for both skill choices in the above posts. It looks like you want a killer, so pro would be better for that.

I've just bought the Mino for my chaos team, and I'm thinking of making a roadblock of him - I already sculpted some tentacles on his face.

 

[Grumbledook]

not that I think attempting 4+ dodges into cages is a great idea most the time, minotaurs also have horns so it would be ST6 rather than ST5

so even if they are ST3 and have a couple of guard players as part of the cage, you can still get 4 dice on the ball carrier if you did do that

I think there are better ways of dealing with cages though as explained in the cage breaking article

that doesn't mean it can't be an option and dodge does still have the other benefits described already, it would be between that or Pro for me as well

 

[biLLy]

My choices would be:

a) Hello, a ST6 blitzer blodger?? Im in.

b) Read a).

Also consider that usually tackle arent priority in the LOS players, which is the place where your mino would be (at least, that is my way of playing), so I dont think there are more options...

Just my opinion.

Best luck.

 

[Gerard]

Pro all the way. Dodge is nice, but on a Chaos team will no natural access to Agility skills it's not hard to see the dodge being easily cancelled out by tackle linesmen. With ST5 and block he is already be a pain to take down. Throw in a couple of guard players round him and you can forget about it. Minos more often go down as a result of their own failed blocks or failed GFIs. Pro makes him an order of magnitude more reliable on your turn.

 

[Barninho]

Wow, nice feedback.

Should say that with time being of the essence I had already picked Pro by the time the Dodge argument was floated but honestly I think I'd do it again.

I've been experimenting with 3 line-beasts and then a line of 5, the Mino in the middle and two Chaos Warriors flanking him either side. One of the Chaos Warriors also has 5 strength. One of the side-effects of this strategy is that the Warriors and Mino tend to get involved where I want them involved rather than being tied up so the Mino isn't normally isolated but flanked by other powerful players which means it's difficult to get the dice to down him whether he's got Dodge or not. The two warriors next to him have Block, Guard, the other two started with Block, MB and Block, +ST, MB. I found this formation meant the Warriors and Mino's skilling up faster than the Beasts because they can gang up on players who are more likely to break and are able to get further up the field for TD's. Next up some Tackle for the Chaos Warriors I reckon.

Pro didn't work out that well by the way for the first game, I failed 3 out of 4 Pro rolls but that was just bad dice. Long term it's going to pay off I reckon.

As far as Dodge goes I'm kind of down on it in general as I'd normally have teams in fairly long leagues and later on if there's lots of Tackle it becomes sort of useless. Plus I wouldn't dodge a second square with him even with a dodge re-roll. I reckon with a AG 2 you're going to fail both rolls a lot of the time. Thanks for the response though everyone.

Also considering I originally was going to make him a pure killer and haven't managed to add any killer skills yet his casualty count is up there with any player I've had from the point I took Break Tackle as my first skill. That will ALWAYS be my first skill for a big guy from now on.

 

[Thargoid]

From my limited experience of playing a Minotaur in a Chaos team I would have taken pro as well. Losing my blitz, minotaur action and a reroll in one turn taught me no longer to depend on him to blitz and I started using a dedicated beastman instead.

Now my question concerning Break Tackle:

I've seen it described as a great skill by many players who have much more experience than me. Now what I don't understand is that, usually, I find people are trying to get *away* from my Minotaur. No one is in his tackle zones and I have to fight to stay in contact, not break away (I took tentacles to help with that). Maybe if I were blitzing more often with him I might like it more, but as a roadblock, can someone explain why it would be better than something like Stand firm/Grab?

My Minotaur has: Block, Guard, Tentacles, Claws

 

[Murkglow]

The reason why you want Break Tackle is that against some players, instead of allowing your Minotaur to roam free and go where he will, they will place a single lineman in contact with your minotaur to tie him down and keep him away from the important battles. Sure you Mino could maul that guy terribly but that's turns spent away from the action. Break Tackle stops that from happening and allows your Mino to go where he is needed alot more freely.

Even better on a Roadblock Minotaur it allows you to reposition your Mino while he is doing his job to either better hold the players he has tied up or to add more players to his tackle zones.

My skill order for a Roadblock Mino would probably be something like: Tentacle, Break Tackle, Stand Firm, Guard (with Block and Stat Ups taken when I can get them). That's about where I "value" Break Tackle in the grand scheme of things, so pretty highly I guess.

 

[Netsmurf]

I´m with Murk on this one, but I will never personaly build a mino that way. I always go for killing combos on minos and specialice some goats to stand in the way instead. (block, guard and stand firm goats)

 

[Barninho]

Yeah, I couldn't have put it better than Murk. Whenever I played on-line with a Mino previously that was exactly what would happen, so you'd end up with him in a position where all his good attributes weren't any good. If the guy marking you has block or wrestle there's also a chance you'll end up on the deck and that makes a Minotaur a real liability in terms of getting value out of him.

My argument for Break Tackle first would be that people can only do that 3 or 4 times before you get the casualties you need to skill up. Tentacles is a fantastic skill for a mino though, I was experimenting on this occasion so I went in a different direction, and its a direction I'd go in again I reckon. You lose the blitzing power if he's LOS.

 

[Thargoid]

Ok I see why it's useful in those situations. Perhaps it's just been my opponent that hasn't played that way. If you really need to move the Minotaur from a single marker then couldn't you blitz the marker and move away? Not ideal but it could make up for it by having an extra skill instead of Break Tackle in other situations?

 

[Murkglow]

Ok I see why it's useful in those situations. Perhaps it's just been my opponent that hasn't played that way. If you really need to move the Minotaur from a single marker then couldn't you blitz the marker and move away? Not ideal but it could make up for it by having an extra skill instead of Break Tackle in other situations?

If he plays smart he'll have the linemen on the opposite side of the minotaur from where you want him to go so that frenzy works against you and forces you 1 or even 2 squares farther from the action if you block or blitz him. Also you have the problem of having your Blitz (which is extreemly valuable, possibly even more valuable then a skill slot... I mean if there was a skill that said "This player may blitz each turn" it would be obscene) eaten up just freeing your mino which is not ideal at all.

Personally, no I don't find another skill worth that kind of flexability.

 

[Gio]

Yep, mobility is key; and let us not forget that it allows for dodging into cages as well. It might not be an easy dodge, but it is easier than without BT.
Just my grain of salt.

 

[Thargoid]

If he plays smart he'll have the linemen on the opposite side of the minotaur from where you want him to go so that frenzy works against you and forces you 1 or even 2 squares farther from the action if you block or blitz him. Also you have the problem of having your Blitz (which is extreemly valuable, possibly even more valuable then a skill slot... I mean if there was a skill that said "This player may blitz each turn" it would be obscene) eaten up just freeing your mino which is not ideal at all.

Personally, no I don't find another skill worth that kind of flexability.

Fair enough. Consider though that you will be needing to blitz with Break Tackle too unless you want a 4+ roll for Wild animal. While you can blitz another target than your marker, you are still limited to using the Blitz on the Minotaur.

 

[Murkglow]

Yes but you can try moving him every turn without Blitzing and not lose much on a Roadblocker (he doesn't lose his tackle zones with wild animal) so moving without blitzing is much more viable that way even with the 4+ roll. And that's if you can't afford to spare the blitz, if you can then you get to blitz anyone, not just the lineman.

 

[Barninho]

Looking at your build Thargold it looks like you've gone for a LOS minotaur which is what I usually do and I can see that Break Tackle wouldn't be quite as useful if you're looking at tying up people on the LOS and getting lots of hits in. With this guy I have been looking to use him as my main blitzer and maximise his casualty count so I do pretty much blitz with him every turn. In terms of busting through defenses ahead of a cage he is the best toy I've ever had. When people use the classic 3-4-4 formation and you receive you can set him up to blitz the first guy down the flanks infield, and even if you don't knock him down you just break tackle and go to the guy behind him.

The cage runs up happily behind him and I find I can score a lot quicker with this approach.

Also on defence he hangs back and this means I can use him to target lower armour players.

I find he gets less injuries if I use him on the LOS as he's usually against big guys and often you won't have block unless you get a double so he can spend time on his arse getting fouled.

Also the sound of glass smashing as he leaps off to headbutt another target is my favorite thing in the entire game. It looks really cool, and is worth the admission price alone.

Sometimes I even 'waste' my blitz just to move him into the perfect position. He has a habit of making the opposition panic and I pretty much expect two casualties a game as a minimum now.

But for a guy used primarily on the LOS your build is excellent, but even then it's nice sometimes to just adjust your position and hit someone where it benefits you. I'd still take break tackle in your situation, but as a later skill.

When I play against power teams with agile teams and realize one or more of their stronger guys has break tackle it makes it a lot harder to deal with