Tactics Skill Allocation Advice VI

[Ging]

My BC2 wood elf team has a couple of level ups.

Tree: Grab
WD1: Strip Ball, Tackle
WD2: Tackle, [Normal]
Thrower: Leader, Dodge, [Double]
Catcher1: Block, -MA
Catcher2: Block
Lineman: Wrestle

2 RRs, 1 Apo, 60k treasury

As you can see, we've only got 7 players at the moment and it'll be a long time before I have enough rostered players to recruit an offensive thrower, we may never get a bench.

For the thrower I was originally thinking Kick or Sure Hands. The double could give me Strong Arm or Guard, although I think Guard will see him eventually end up in harm's way.

For WD2 I was thinking Sidestep to give some variety, although I could be talked into another Strip Baller if people think its worth getting a second one now?

If it helps, the rest of our season looks like this, in order:
Orc (higher TV with lots of Block, Tackle & MB ), Ska, Orc, Und, Hum, Liz, Nec.

 

[tys123]

I'd go for sidestep and guard.

If you want an offensive thrower it should be a new guy as Strong Arm and Accurate are wasted skills when defending so ideally you want him benched when kicking.
However Leader needs to play on both offense and defense.
A thrower with Blodge , Guard , Sidestep , Leader is great on defense
Accurate , Strong Arm , Safe Throw , Dodge , Block only plays on offense

Note neither build has Sure Hands though Sidestep could be replaced by Kick.

Catch comes before Sure Hands on elven throwers to make farming spp on lineman easier.

 

[Ging]

Ok, maybe Guard on the thrower then.
(yeah, he'll play every drive with Leader already)

I think I've seen people put Catch on a thrower before, but isn't that a bit of a waste of a skill on the thrower when the lineman can farm the pass to a catcher?
Or am I missing a subtlety to wood elf play (one of many I'm sure ).

 

[TravelScrabble]

You often want the ball on the thrower and the catchers receiving, especially against other agility teams and when going for a quick score

 

[Sataric]

Ok, maybe Guard on the thrower then.
(yeah, he'll play every drive with Leader already)

I think I've seen people put Catch on a thrower before, but isn't that a bit of a waste of a skill on the thrower when the lineman can farm the pass to a catcher?
Or am I missing a subtlety to wood elf play (one of many I'm sure ).

The primary reason to take catch on the thrower isn't for SPP farming as far as I know, but rather so you can keep the thrower quite close to the line of scrimmage surrounded by supporting elves. Then you pick up the ball with another player and run it far back to safety. You hand it to the thrower on the next turn/whenever your catchers have made it down the opposing side of the pitch a sufficient distance, and then you can run up the field with the thrower before you make the pass or just make sure there's no opponents in the way to intercept it. With this tactic you can normally get the ball all the way to the enemy end-zone on a 2+, and the catch skill helps you not burning a reroll in case the hand-off should fail.

Also, in case the ball should ever be knocked out of your hands (or your opponents), picking it up with a random elf and then handing it to the thrower (who then passes) is often the best way to get out of a sticky situation if you cannot re-cage. In other words: There's a few neat uses for the skill, but knowing your playstyle and how good you are at screening and positioning I doubt you'd get a ton of use out of it Mister Ging.

 

[Nikolai II]

My BC2 Wood Elf team had 3 level ups, all normal rolls. (Steam appears to be down at the moment, so I can't pull up the exact skills on this team. I'm going from memory, but this should be pretty close.)

Catcher: Block
Line Elf: AG5, Wrestle, Dodge
Line Elf: Wrestle, Dodge

Rest of the team looks like:
Treeman: MA 3, Grab
War Dancer: AG 5, Mighty Blow
War Dancer: -AV, Strip Ball, Side Step
Thrower: No skills
Line Elf: No skills
Line Elf: ST 5, AG 5, Kick, Block
Line Elf: Wrestle, Dodge, Dirty Player
Line Elf: Block, Dodge, Side Step

My division is mostly bash this season, but I intend to play this team for a while, so I don't want to overspecialize against my current opponents.

The AG5 wrodger I think I want to turn into a sacker, so Leap, Strip Ball and Tackle in some order. Even without Leap, an AG 5 dodge into 3 Tackle Zones should be 4+, right? So I've got a 75% chance of dodging into a cage, assuming there's no Tackle to worry about. This makes getting Strip Ball or Tackle now interesting. Especially since I need to replace the Strip Ball War Dancer eventually due to her armor break. I don't like playing Wood Elves without at least one Strip Ball player, and of course the more the better. I have no Tackle on the team currently.

I never know what to do with Catchers beyond Block/Wrestle.

So Fend on the AG4 wrodger? Or take Leap on the AG5 wrodger and tackle on the AG4 guy?

I also need to buy an additional player to get to 12 players. I'd like to have 12 or 13 rostered players before I replace the War Dancer. I'm not sure if I ought to get a Catcher or another Lineman.

Probably done with already, but I'd probably have gone:

Sidestep on catcher (Helps oneturnings and keeping him in annoying spots, works with guard, stat or diving tackle next skill)
Leap on AG5 Lino (75% with dodge skill is still worse than naked 83%, plus having two players that can just slann rush straight over the defensive lineup and hunt the carrier can mess up their drive nicely) even if it makes him more of a ball retriever than a springer
Tackle on wrodge lino. (Else sidestep before fend). As mentioned, you are low on tackle until your dancers skill up some.
Future catchers should probably go wrestle dauntless, at least a couple of them.

 

[Nikolai II]

The primary reason to take catch on the thrower isn't for SPP farming as far as I know, but rather so you can keep the thrower quite close to the line of scrimmage surrounded by supporting elves. Then you pick up the ball with another player and run it far back to safety. You hand it to the thrower on the next turn/whenever your catchers have made it down the opposing side of the pitch a sufficient distance, and then you can run up the field with the thrower before you make the pass or just make sure there's no opponents in the way to intercept it. With this tactic you can normally get the ball all the way to the enemy end-zone on a 2+, and the catch skill helps you not burning a reroll in case the hand-off should fail.

Also, in case the ball should ever be knocked out of your hands (or your opponents), picking it up with a random elf and then handing it to the thrower (who then passes) is often the best way to get out of a sticky situation if you cannot re-cage. In other words: There's a few neat uses for the skill, but knowing your playstyle and how good you are at screening and positioning I doubt you'd get a ton of use out of it Mister Ging.

Your suggestions for catch on thrower are also good (fairly similar to how I ran my first wood elf team), but if the thrower has accurate and maybe something more it's not uncommon to also use it for the "pickup and farm" opening where the thrower himself gets to hide in the backfield.

 

[Znarx]

My AG5, Mighty Blow War Dancer just got her third skill, a normal roll.

This team also has some ridiculous other players:
War Dancer, AV 6, Leap Ball, Side Step
Lineman, Kick, ST5, AG5, Block
Lineman, AG 5, Wrestle, Dodge, Leap

I'm inclined to take Side Step to help protect this guy. But I would like to have another Leap Strip Ball player so I can replace the armor broken Dancer without giving up Strip Ball. Although honestly the AV6 gal has survived a bunch of games so far, so I may just hold on to her until she picks up another bad injury. I have enough cash to replace the Dancer now, but only 12 rostered players. I'm thinking about getting up to 13 players and a substantial cash reserve before replacing the War Dancer.

 

[Veggente85]

My AG5, Mighty Blow War Dancer just got her third skill, a normal roll.

This team also has some ridiculous other players:
War Dancer, AV 6, Leap Ball, Side Step
Lineman, Kick, ST5, AG5, Block
Lineman, AG 5, Wrestle, Dodge, Leap

I'm inclined to take Side Step to help protect this guy. But I would like to have another Leap Strip Ball player so I can replace the armor broken Dancer without giving up Strip Ball. Although honestly the AV6 gal has survived a bunch of games so far, so I may just hold on to her until she picks up another bad injury. I have enough cash to replace the Dancer now, but only 12 rostered players. I'm thinking about getting up to 13 players and a substantial cash reserve before replacing the War Dancer.

MB Wardancers should have tackle. *Drop the mic*

 

[tys123]

I would also take tackle

 

[Borke]

Hell yeah, Tackle!

 

[Ging]

My UKBBL lizards have 2 matches of the seeding season left, against Norse and Dark Elves.
Got a couple of level-ups (rest of the roster is rookie saurii & skinks):

Krox: Guard, SF
Saur1: Block, Tackle
Saur2: Block, [NORMAL]
Saur3: Block
Skink1: SS, [6+6]
Skink2: SS
Skink3: SS


For Saurus2 I guess I'm looking at MB, Guard or Frenzy?
I'm thinking MB is probably favourite here (will be a long time before another saurus gets to 16 SPP).

Bigger decision is the 6+6 on the Sidestep skink.
Unless I'm missing something this appears to be a choice between +ST, Sure Hands and Block (could also make a case for Wrestle).

Its normally hard to ignore the +ST, would it be good value here?
Or would one of the double skills (Block/Sure Hands) provide better value?
If I ignore the +ST and he rolls another double will I regret passing up the +ST?

 

[DireSickFish]

Break Tackle if you don't have it already on anyone. With MV6 it's hard to outspeed Saurus, except by man marking them and hurting their AG1. Break Tackle takes away that weakness.

Take the Strength on the skink, it will make him a good ball carrier and harder to 2d the ball. Plus if you get another double you'll have a monster on your hands.

 

[Ging]

Break Tackle if you don't have it already on anyone. With MV6 it's hard to outspeed Saurus, except by man marking them and hurting their AG1. Break Tackle takes away that weakness.

Take the Strength on the skink, it will make him a good ball carrier and harder to 2d the ball. Plus if you get another double you'll have a monster on your hands.

My Block/Tackle saurus is only 6 SPP from 31 SPP so I was going to give him Break Tackle, as that will give more mobility to my only Tackle player.

Thanks for your view on the skink, I agree it would make him a safer ball carrier, just seems a bit under-whelming for 50k. I probably will go with that, but let's see if anyone can convince me otherwise.

 

[TravelScrabble]

I'd go for it too, you want a double to go with it ideally, but if you get one, having a skink that can reliably keep the ball in a cage is huge for lizards, and even if you don't 1d is a lot better than two.

 

[NieA7]

I turned down +ST on a skink for sure hands, and I never regretted it even when she went on to roll another two doubles and +MA. +ST is purely defensive and would only come in to play when they get hit, which ideally doesn't happen anyway. Sure hands not only saves re-rolls, it can also be used aggressively to recover the ball from a scrum, and there are loads of doubles that go well with it if you happen to roll another one (block, fend and kick-off return all work well).

If you had a sure hands skink already I'd consider the +ST, but without one I'd take it every time.

 

[Sataric]

Sure Hands on a Skink is great, and pairs well with the Side-Step that he already has. I personally think that the +STR is a little bit overrated because in some cases it simply won't make a difference (STR 4 player attacking you, or the opponent being able to assist) and even if it DOES work as intended and turn your opponents 2 dice roll into a 1 die, you still do not have block meaning a 33% chance to get you down regardless, which is very similar to rolling 2 dice against a Blodger. Not to mention that +50K TV being quite heavy. The +STR is still awesome if you roll doubles again later on and can pick up Block, though - That has to be said.

 

[DeBonic]

Have been experimenting with a bretonnian team in the open ladder MM environment. Prior to blitzers getting agility access, I had seen it suggested that running only 3 blitzers helped to keep them more competitive as it kept TV down. So far, that is what I've been doing with decent results over 9 matches (5-3-1). I like fielding only 3 as it frees up my dirty player from line duty. I'm currently carrying 13 players and am looking to add one more. The TV is currenlty 1370 with 3 RR. Current roster is 3 blitzers with blodge, 3 blockers with guard and 1 unskilled, 2 linemen with block 1 with DP and 3 unskilled. The question is whether I should add the fourth blizter, or continue to try and keep TV low by adding another linemen? The biggest issue I find in matches is dealing with attrition (majority of opponents are str4 bashy teams) over the course of a match. Having a fourth 8av player that can become blodgy may help that.

 

[Borke]

I turned down +ST on a skink for sure hands, and I never regretted it even when she went on to roll another two doubles and +MA. +ST is purely defensive and would only come in to play when they get hit, which ideally doesn't happen anyway. Sure hands not only saves re-rolls, it can also be used aggressively to recover the ball from a scrum, and there are loads of doubles that go well with it if you happen to roll another one (block, fend and kick-off return all work well).

If you had a sure hands skink already I'd consider the +ST, but without one I'd take it every time.

I'm far from being an expert on Lizardmen (probably as far from it as you can possibly get), so here's a noob question that came to my mind while reading this discussion: Is a +ST/Wrestle Skink something worth considering, at all? I'm coming from the experience of Underworld, mostly, though I've seen a few Gobbos on Goblin teams go that route before, too. So whenever I see Stunty and +ST, I immediately think of cage busting. Is that viable, or is it too expensive for what you get?

 

[jrpeart]

I'm far from being an expert on Lizardmen (probably as far from it as you can possibly get), so here's a noob question that came to my mind while reading this discussion: Is a +ST/Wrestle Skink something worth considering, at all? I'm coming from the experience of Underworld, mostly, though I've seen a few Gobbos on Goblin teams go that route before, too. So whenever I see Stunty and +ST, I immediately think of cage busting. Is that viable, or is it too expensive for what you get?

I had a ST3 Wrestle Skink in my BB1 OCC Lizard team and he was awesome on defense. Of course I went the other way and went Wrestle then ST later so he was already doing defensive work.

He also did well as primary ball carrier for a few seasons despite having Wrestle and picking up -AV from cage busting.

I'd say if you're worried about TV efficiency then ST possibly isn't as efficient as a straight double but gives a better chance at an awesome player further down the line.

Personally I'd go for ST, but skipping it for Block wouldn't be a horrible choice either. If it's a short term decision then I'd go Block.