One Turn Scorer:
- Normal: Sprint/Sure Feet/Side Step/Leap/Catch
- Doubles: Nerves of Steel/Two heads
- Stat Increase: +ST, +AG, +MV
Thankfully under the new rules it is harder to build a one turner without getting the +MV as Very Long Legs no longer grants an extra square of movement. This means you need to rely on the go for its when you get Sprint. Sure Feet will help with the 3 go for its, Side Step will let you chain push the player forward the one square you need if you don’t get a movement increase. Leap will let you jump over a deep defensive line, or against perfect defence. Catch obviously helps conserve rerolls when you are getting the ball to him. Nerves of Steel on doubles will aid against perfect defence or Pass Blockers, or Two Heads will make dodging past a deep defence easier. +ST is no use at all for this player but will let you turn him into a more rounded and perhaps useful player, +AG may also do the same but it also makes one turning easier as well.
I really don’t think you should build a player this way, if you do then it makes most sense to wait until a Gutter Runner gets +MV, preferably on the first skill. You will often be just fielding him for one turn and hiding him in the dug out a lot. This will keep a lot of team value off the pitch and prevent you from turning him into a more useful player for both offence and defence. This is only my opinion though and hopefully what I’ve explained in this article should convince you of how great Gutter Runners can be built other ways.
Skaven Gutter RunnerSummary:
You may have spotted that the skills I have recommended will work on both sides of the ball, defensively and offensively (not every skill obviously). This makes them useful to have on the pitch all the time, which for your more expensive players makes the most sense in my eyes. Wrestle and Block as the first skills for them, really helps with keeping them alive and lets you use them more aggressively. Side Step up next, keeps them from getting bogged down, ties them to targets you want to mark, defends the sideline, lets you stand (or half cage) next to the sideline and also lets you one turn fairly easily with chain pushes (another reason not to build a dedicated one turner). If you get a stat increase in any of the first three skills you can build that player to maximise which particular bonus he got. Building this way with skills that help any build means you don’t waste any stat increase you get on one of them. Just cause it perhaps is better to have Wrestle and Block the way around I suggested, doesn’t mean you can swap the roles around depending on who gets a +ST or +AG.
Gutter Runners can be really flexible and after the first two skills you can really go which ever way you prefer for your own play style or skewed towards the other teams that make up the league you are playing in. Don’t be scared of them getting killed, it is a rough game and it happens, it shouldn’t be hard to build a replacement anyway. Also Nuffle favours those who stick their nose on the line more!
Skaven were my first team and they remain my favourite, especially due to these guys. Where Dwarfs struggle to get across a pitch sideways, the Gutter Runners can be almost anywhere you want on the pitch in no more than two moves.
Another use for Gutter Runners, is if you start with a Rat Ogre and are short of money so don’t bother with a Skaven Thrower, Gutter Runners can make serviceable Passers with their Agility of 4. Obviously this isn’t a career for them but they do a good job until you can afford a Thrower later.
Ah yes I’ve had this debate with other coaches before who suggest not taking a thrower at all. I’m so used to playing with a thrower so I rarely need to use a gutter runner to do the job of picking it up, hence forgetting to mention it.
Personally I would rather have another potential receiver for the opponents to deal with and the thrower can end up passing the ball better than a gutter runner can anyway. Of course you can still use a gutter runner to pick the ball up with even if you do have a thrower on the pitch, nothing should be set in stone.
Just starting a skaven team in an on going league right now. Got 1M to start then 350K for additional upgrades with the limit of only single die skills. I put the skills on everyone but the runners(easiest to level up) and the rat orge(want a double).
Well yes, I would always get a Thrower eventually. I merely meant starting off.
3+ with a Reroll(Sure Hands) is statistically safer than a straight 2+ for picking up the ball. Not by much but it can make all the difference at a crucial time of a game. And this is also true of passes.
I would point out that much of the value of the one-turn-scorer is in the way the threat can force the opposing coach to modify his game plan. Defensively coaches can less rely on a couple deep safeties to mark receivers, but have to spread out their whole team to make sure to cover enough of the pitch with TZs.
On offense, strength teams will have a harder time going for the 2-1 victory. During the half where they go last, stalling until turn 7 won’t be good enough, they have to stall all the way to turn 8, which gives you an extra turn to impede the ball carrier. During the half where they go first, even if they stall until turn 8, you still have a good shot to score with your last turn. Against other passing teams, if you find yourself in a high-scoring shootout, a one-turn score can net you an extra TD at the end of halves to put you over the top.
I’m a new player to Blood Bowl and have just started up a league with some friends. I coach Skaven, and am not really seeing the advantage of Wrestle over Block as your first skill pick for a Gutter Runner. If a blocking roll is a “both down”, the former puts you both on the ground without armor rolls, while the latter puts your opponent on the ground only, and you get an AV check. In both cases, the ball comes loose if you’ve just hit the ball carrier… Is the idea here that a GR on the ground can’t be blocked (only fouled) and therefore has a lower chance of being injured the next turn?
In my first game I played dwarfs, and my only player to get a skill was a GR. I’m leaning towards Block, but am curious as to why you might select Wrestle instead.
This is a simple one, most ball carriers are going to have the block skill as well, so if you have block there will be no effect, if you take wrestle instead you can knock him over for a team mate to collect the ball, or force them to pick the ball up again. This can seriously slow the progress of moving the ball down the field for the opposing team.
Aha! Thinking outside the box here. I’d not really considered my Gutter Runners as players who would go after the ball carrier often (though they did try in their first game, to disasterous effect), but with wrestle, a “both down” would pull down another player *even if he has block* and, of course, dislodge the ball if that sucker had it.
Nice.
There’s more listed under the skill articles on block and wrestle, but it’s also a defensive strategy – if your player gets blocked, you can choose to have both players go prone, even if the opponent has block. This prevents the player who blocked you from lending or preventing assists, especially if he has guard. He also won’t be exerting a tackle zone during your turn, and since your player has the first opportunity to stand up, he will be able to move freely that turn without being tied up by the player who just blocked you.
Thanks Coach !
My first i gave my first Gutter Runner Block and Dauntless, i will go for Strip Ball after this. Second will be Wrestle instad of Block, this will give me 2 blitzers and a decent ball carrier. I just hope i will be able to level my linemens, they don’t get many xp atm 🙁
As long as you play one-turn scorers as aggressively as other runners I think can be real game-breakers. Don’t leave them in the dug-out on your opponents drive, keep them around as assists for blocks (they can move from one end of the pitch to the other to bring in a much needed assist) or lingering ball-pickers that steal the ball and run far far away with it (preferably to the end zone) once your blitzer runners have done their job.
They are nice distractions too…your opponent will hunt them so putting them off to the side of where the action is can tie up opposing players that should maybe have been thinking more about protecting the ball carrier than chasing him.
Sure, playing them aggressively means your precious one-turn scorer might die…but that’s what skaven is all about, re-shape and re-build (at least he won’t be hogging all the SPP and inflating your TV anymore).
Very good read Coach!
I was hoping you would put up a guide about how your two turn on offense, placing your recievers, ball carrier etc.
Also how you would play defense vs 2 turners, how to cover recievers, who to blitz, starting lineup etc.
Make some nice play graphs like you did on the MV6 one turner post.
Excellent website you have.
Cheers!
I forgot, we are also missing a stormvermin guide. I need it badly!
Interested to know what you think of some of the other available mutations – I can see Foul Appearance being particularly annoying combined with Block and Side Step. Or Disturbing Presence combined with Pass Block. Or Prehensile Tail with Tackle/Shadowing…
Personally, I’m not a fan of those skills on gutter runners, because I feel like there are more useful options. You really want to take advantage of the high movement and agility that gutter runners possess, and disturbing presence and prehensile tail are skills that could be taken, to equal effect, on linemen. And LRB 5 Foul Appearance has been weakened to the point where I can’t really see taking it anymore.
Long legs, pass block, and catch could be very useful on a gutter runner allowing them to get into the right place and intercept a pass then turn around and run it in for a touch down on the next turn.
Wanderer, dont discount foul appearance.
Its basically an automatic bonehead roll for their blitz action.
I agree you wouldnt necessarily take it as a high pick for a gutter runner, but its not a bad mutation at all. On defence against cages a couple of players with foul appearance can completely foul up (if you’ll excuse the pun) the other teams push, even one turn without getting to blitz can be very annoying.
Throwers with foul appearance and dump-off are also incredibly annoying for the other team. You have to go to effort to set up the block so that you can have a chance at stopping the pass…only to have the foul appearance roll fail.
In the Cyanide game you cant use a reroll on the foul appearance roll at the moment, so its slightly better online than on board.
It’s not whether it’s useful, it’s whether it’s more useful than anything else I could take.
With a limit on 5 skills maximum on a player, personally, I just can’t see a reason to take it. On a Skaven team I’m forgoing another doubles skill choice (dodge, guard, claw, horns, etc.) and on a Chaos team I’d want so many other normal skills first (block, guard, mighty blow, stand firm, tackle, frenzy, prehensile tail, etc.)
agreed, its difficult to fit it in.
I’ve seen it used a couple of ways that were interesting, but whether they were better than the other alternatives…..hard to say.
A chaos front line with foul appearance on every player (mino and two chaos warriors) is annoying for other strength teams, but completely wasted against agi teams.
Gutter runners with it only really turn up when someone has rolled several doubles on the same player.
And I’m now confused, do I not have the latest version of the LRB?
Isnt it 6 maximum skills for a player?
You’re right, it’s 6 not 5. I was going off the “LRB 5 changes” article on this site, which says 5 (that could be fixed when you get a chance, coach). That was the nice thing about Foul Appearance in the old rules – it had value against both blocking and passing teams.
worth noting that it still has some value against agi teams, in fact its one of the only things that can save your carrier from a blitzing wardancer with wrestle and tackle and a spare reroll….particularly since you cant reroll it at the moment in the cyanide version lol.
It also makes getting your marker off a thrower a lot harder, gutter runners with shadowing, tackle, block, sidestep and foul appearance is darn hard to get off your thrower (though not THAT much harder than the same player without foul appearance)
Meh, you’re right, its not as good as it probably needs to be to make it a genuinely good skill. All of its uses are pretty situational and specific, you wont see too many people taking it, but its a ‘nice to have’. The sort of skill you get as your fifth or sixth on a player thats pretty much got everything you needed him to have for his role.
I just started a Skaven team, and one of my gutter runners suffered -1 Strength. I have cash to buy a new one, but the gutter runner is lvl 2. Should I discard him or should I wait to get a +ST
ST1 is pretty useless get rid of him, wouldn’t think twice about it. Any future questions about your teams can you ask in the forum please, sign up is just as easy as commenting here.
Hey Coach, when will you finally give up and get a copy of the BB videogame? 🙂
At the moment i’m running a quite nice skaven team with 4 different GR builds:
1. wrestle, dauntless (striball next)
2. +1 S, block (sidestep, shadowing)
3. +1 MA, sprint (wrestle/block, surefeet)
with the fourth i’m going quite a weird one:
long legs, pass block, i intend to get leap and catch next – leaping on 2+, intercepting on 4+ with RR. I find leap and pass block to combine very nicely, rarely an opponent expect a leaping pass block. The combo also uses the long legs skills to its full.
What do you think?
I like your Gutters, although one with Guard might be a good idea.
Maybe with the fourth Gutter you should get big hand instead of catch? I find big hand and leap work really well together.
I don’t know if this is still looked at and appologies if this is stupid, but does shadowing really work with diving tackle?
Sure it does, I wouldn’t have suggested it otherwise. See this thread for a breakdown of the play sequence http://bbtactics.com/forums/shadowing-diving-tackle-t534/
In advising against the one turn build, I really think you are undervaluing how strong any player is when they can run 13 squares on defence.
Any GR who gets +MV I’d follow up with sprint and sure feet for a 1 turn guy, but certainly wouldn’t hide him in the dug out on defence. If the other guy wants to spend all his blitzes chasing him down instead of concentrating on scoring touchdowns, well that works for me. Everything dies eventually.
Very few opponents will realise just how thoroughly they have to protect the ball against an MA13 player, and even if they do – you’re forcing them to play more conservatively than they otherwise would.
I’d throw block and probably dauntless into the build before side step and catch. Where I do agree is I wouldn’t bother until you roll +MA, if you need to rely on side step pushes you might as well get two of them and then any of your GRs can one-turn.
We will just have to beg to differ, I would much rather face a Skaven team who has a one turner on the pitch when defending than a defensively built one. Those couple of extra squares of movement don’t really make much difference from the opposing offensive drive perspective (at least the way I play). With AG4, Dodge and MV9 as standard they can get anywhere they want to already.
Wouldn’t a “Marking/Turnover” Runner make sense? Seeing as there are four of them, and having four runners is just a total overkill.
I’m building mine with Shadowing, P. Tail, Blodge, Side step/Stand Firm.
Strip ball would work, if he’s to be the dedicated retriever, toss in Tackle in that case. Dauntless and Leap would be ones to look out for as well.. But the main idea is that with their insane movement, you will shadow everyone, forever. Eventually they will mess the dodge up, for suddenly it’s 5 dodge rolls instead of one.
The low AV means he would get targeted from the moment he gets Shadowing till the moment he dies, but this is blood bowl. I’ve had blitzers die while tackling skinks with 5 assists.
The Defensive Gutter Runners are Marking / Turnover Runners just with a different name! There are so many useful skills that they could take, Dauntless is another late pick I didn’t mention in the article though.
Ah, i see. I was looking for the tail so hard, that i’ve overlooked the Diving Tackle build.
Wouldn’t Diving Tackle and Tail stack? A hefty -3 to dodge would counter everything except for leap and throw teammate.
They certainly do stack, though I can’t help but think I would rather spend a double roll on Guard or something else. Diving Tackle is usually enough to get the job done. With a Guard player marking someone you don’t want to move, they will always be an option to assist a team mate for a block or a blitz.
Two Heads, Extra Arms, Big Hand, Nerves of Steel are personally all higher priority choices.
True that, but should diving tackle be the reason for turnover, it would take too many traits – in my hardly-experienced opinion – to make the Defensive Runner also proficient at pushing the ball onward. Two Heads and Extra Arms are amazing, but BH or NoS would require him to have those extra heads.
I’m more into having specialized team members (that are juicy for fauling and murder) that can be backed by those mixes-of-all things.
Facing stunty teams everywhere i turn, i do feel that p.tail is worth more. Besides, it would allow you to “conserve” the diving tackle, for the “This is the last safe moment where i can remain laying down” shadowing, and rely more on the steady -1, that doesn’t cut down the movement.
This is, of course, assuming that we don’t want Jump Up. In that case even the Big Hand… There are far too many variations.
Now i see an error i’ve made.
I was certain that they can pick mutations on single. P. Tail is, indeed, hardly worth a double on anything, except for roadblocks. (and even then, only the umptieth double). I still wouldn’t want big hand, but i shall look for different ways to enchant the defensive runner indeed.
I will just take this opportunity to thank you for the amazing job you’ve done here. While bbtactics doesn’t exhaust all possible (viable) builds – to keep it from getting cluttered, i assume – it surely gets you on track much faster than anything i’ve seen. Kudos.
I favor building the 4 gutter runners to actually only have 3 on the pitch at a time usually.
I like to build 1 of them into a 1-turn scorer-style, with sure feet, sprint, HOPEFULLY +1MA…maybe eventually VLL and Leap. The key with the 1-turner is that he’s only on the field when i recieve, in order to keep his SPP reasonable
I build 2 wrestle, dauntless, strip ball, tackle, guard (at some point)
The last is my specialist….If i get one with +1AG early, it becomes this guy: Block, +AG, Leap, Sure Hands, Pro (if he doesn’t get +AG, then he takes Big Hand and VLL on doubles)
this way i have 2 ball hunters and a ball retriever to set up on defense, and when receiving, i have out the 1-turner and several linerats….the goal being a 1 or 2 turn TD whenever i recieve, and then a slow grinding defense when i kick, with surgical strikes by wrodging, dauntless, strip ball gutters and a specialized ball retriever.
I love wrestle/dauntless as my first two skills on gutter runners as I try to build my skaven so that I can sack the ball on defence and score (and hopefully only play one offensive drive).
But recently I have been debating which to take first? If you can only take one which do you take (more relevant for tournaments)?
They both have similar chances of knocking the ball loose
Chance of knocking over a S3 ball carrier with block:
2 die block (dauntless): 5/6*5/9 + 1/6*1/3 = 51.8%
1 die block (wrestle): 1/2 = 50%
1 die block (dauntless): 5/6*1/3 + 1/6*1/9 = 29.6%
-2 die block (wrestle): 1/4 = 25%
Chance of knocking over a S3 ball carrier with blodge:
2 die block (dauntless): 5/6/*11/36 + 1/6*1/6 = 28%
1 die block (wrestle): 1/3 = 33.3%
1 die block (dauntless): 5/6*1/6 + 1/6*1/36 = 14.3%
-2 die block (wrestle): 1/9 = 11.1%
One of the down sides to wrestle is it puts you on the ground, and ends that piece’s move. On the other hand it goes through block, and protects you on the both down result if your runner gets blitzed or blocked and doesn’t cause turnovers. Wrestle also has an effect against S2 ball carriers whereas dauntless does not. Wrestle obviously has the advantage if you can get two assists giving you the two dice block (dauntless does nothing in this situation).
Dauntless has the advantage of keeping you on your feet when you blitz or block, good if your gutter runner has the ball, or if he is blitzing the ball carrier as he can attempt to pick up the ball after the blitz and makes it easier to achieve 1 and 2 dice blocks as you need less pieces to do so and as a result lets isolated gutter runners perform better.
It also gives you more options. Performing two dodges through a tackle zone has a 83.3% chance of success (assuming that the last dodge is on a 2+, i.e not into a tackle zone), if those tackle zones belong to a player with the tackle skill that drops to 55.5% chance of success.
Performing three dodges through tackle zone to get to the end zone has a 67.8% chance of success (assuming the last dodge is on a 2+, i.e not into a tackle zone), if those tackle zones belong to a player with the tackle skill that drops to 37% chance of succes.
Both of the above situations occur quite frequently, often when your gutter runner gets pinned between a player and the sideline, or two players.
A dauntless blitz against a S3 player has a 62.9% chance of pushing the player back (this takes into account the dauntless roll). With a re-roll this becomes a 86.41% chance.
With 1 assist this becomes an 85% chance of pushing the player back (This takes into account the dauntless roll). With a re-roll this becomes a 96.49% chance.
In these situations it can be safer to blitz the marker so you don’t have to perform any dodge rolls. Especially if the marker has tackle, prehensile tail or tentacles and does not have stand firm or side step.
Taking the above into account I find dauntless has more utility than wrestle. As a result I have recently started going dauntless first, and choosing dauntless over wrestle in tournaments where you only get a few skills (often only one a piece). Obviously, ideally you want both! 😀
Hope that’s useful.
I’m taking part in a BB Tournament and you an give players a Double skill and what your you suggest for a Gutter Runner? I have four skills to dish out but only one per player and probably going to give them all to my Gutter Runners.
Hi Kueller, there is a dedicated area on the forum for tournament questions like this http://bbtactics.com/forums/naf-resurrection-tournament-tactics/
“Wrestle Rats: You need to build two of these guys and set them up one either side of the pitch when you are kicking off to the other team.”
What i have learned that it’s not good to have two wrestle rats. You really don’t want ball to land on wrestle player. Blodge rat even with ST2 can hold ball, but with Wrestle it’s just too easy to pop the ball away. Skaven play a lot with just few players so all need to be handle ball at all times. One is enough for BC blitzes. Wrestle+TwoHeads is great blitz combination.
At first I did go the route of a one-turn scorer(who is awesome with +1 MV, fend,sprint,sure feet) but I found that the one I did to be more defensive style player was great! I have a GR who has Block, Shadowing, Dauntless. Any opinion on what next? I’m of course thinking side step, but all depends, doubles I’d do horns or +1 ST, just cursious! thanks guys
I’d normally suggest making a forum thread and posting your whole team to better asses skill choices and weaknesses of the team. On this occasion though I think Side Step is clearly the choice I’d go for, I’d have taken it before Shadowing and Dauntless.
What is the opinion about Horns vs Dauntless? I mainly asking about a wrestler GR but I also think both are generally good skills on a GR. If you can manage to get both +ST and Horns I think that makes for an incredible strong GR but it is not an very likely scenario. The problem with Horns for me is that you give up a double for it. I like the skill but I have a hard time seeing it wining over Dauntless when I have to give up double for it.
Looking over the thread I see a lot of really interesting and imaginative thoughts on GR builds… I have to say I’m surprised a 1 turn scorer isn’t universally accepted as amazing. You’re certainly putting a lot of eggs in one basket if you start the build without the +MV so I agree it’s a gamble. However if you are lucky enough to get that +MV on a GR early I think the 1 turn build is a must. The ability to score in 1 turn vs. 2 is a complete game changer. Lots of teams can reliably score in 2… But when you have the ability to do it in 1 it reshapes your opponents approach. Bashy teams can’t just sit on the ball forcing you to attack and grinding you down only to score on their turn 8 thus giving you no opportunity to score. Skaven are great opportunists but you can’t get caught up in trading blocks. Knowing I can reliably score in 1 turn, I often find myself letting my opponent set up a cage with zero resistance. If he/she is allocating 4-6 players plus the ball carrier for the cage then I look for players seperated from the cage to gang block with my storm vermin and rat ogre. You may pick up some extra SPP from this and create a numbers advantage on future drives. If your opponent panics and starts sending players to aid you can respond by attacking a less guarded cage. If your opponent tries to get into a fast pace offensive contest then this approach will likely favor the fleet of foot Skaven team as well. Like I said, lots of teams can reliably score in 2 turns. The ability to do it in 1 makes Skaven a unique problem to deal with.
I have a question regarding Skaven strategy. When kicking off, which players should I Zerg the ball with and how many should I keep back to disrupt catchers. The rat ogre seems built to injure catchers but the gutter runners can be built to play either side of the field. Would a balanced 2 gutter 2 storm rush with 2 gutter 2 throw 1 ratogre in the backfield work well or would a more aggressive 6 player rush with only the throwers and rat ogre left defending work better?
Hi Coach,
thanks for those great thoughts on Gutter Runners!
I was one of those new coaches thinking that their movement makes them fast scorers, but now I know better ?
There is one thing I failed to understand reading your article:
Which of the builds do you put on the field while kicking off and receiving, respectively?
Ok, quite obviously the 1 Turn Scorer would be for receiving, but I think I will follow the advice of not taking one.
The others…well they all sound like being made for when the opponent has the ball.
Does this mean I only field them when kicking off?
But then again, not sure if I should have enough linerats to put 3 GR on the bench, especially as I might also like to put the linerat with Kick there…
I tend to usually put all my good players on the pitch, unless it’s an irrelevant dead turn.